Who gets into heaven (assuming there is one)?

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  1. SolitaryScribe

    SolitaryScribe Fapstronaut

    That's what I thought as well. But I think it's a misconception. It's a common teaching that sin is a separation from God, however that's not quite accurate. As being created by God, it is not in our nature to exist without him. If we were to separate from his presence, we would revert to non-existence for God created us out of non existence.

    Rather sin is like "missing the mark". Imagine if you were playing darts, your aim should be for the center, and when you don't quite get that mark in the center is exactly what sin is. The mark or center is perfection, it is God. Those who end up in heaven or hell really depend on this small aspect, what are you aiming for? when we choose not to aim for the center we are choosing hell, however when we choose to aim for the center yet still miss anyway, we are choosing heaven and in that scenario God will grant his grace that you may keep getting closer and closer to the center.

    Salvation and heaven isn't about chilling up in the clouds and doing nothing. It's a continuation of that trying to hit the mark. It takes eternity to become one with God.
     
  2. truthseeker17

    truthseeker17 Fapstronaut

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    It is in Islam. This will be the biggest loss. Meeting your Lord and loosing Him.

    Indeed, those who disbelieve will be addressed, "The hatred of Allah for you was [even] greater than your hatred of yourselves [this Day in Hell] when you were invited to faith, but you refused." Qur'an 40:10



    the size of it hell
    "On the Day when We will say to Hell: ‘Are you filled?’ It will say, ‘Are there any more (to come)?’" (Quran 50:30)

    very short description of hell
    "Indeed, you (disbelievers), and that which you worship other than God,[2] are but fuel for Hell. Verily, you will enter it. Had these (false deities) been (actual) gods, they would not have entered there, but all will eternally abide therein." (Quran 21:98-99)

    When the unbeliever will see Hell, he will be filled with remorse, but it will not be of any benefit:

    "And they will feel regret when they see the punishment; and they will be judged in justice, and they will not be wronged." (Quran 10:54)

    The unbeliever will pray for his death when they sense its heat,

    "And when they are thrown into a narrow place therein bound in chains, they will cry out thereupon for destruction. (They will be told), ‘Do not cry this Day for one destruction but cry for much destruction.’" (Quran 25:13-14)

    Their screams will get louder and they will call onto God hoping He will take them out of Hell:

    "And they will cry out therein, ‘Our Lord, remove us; we will do righteousness – other than what we were doing!’" (Quran 35:37)

    They will realize theirs sins and the error of stubborn disbelief:

    "And they will say, ‘If only we had been listening or reasoning, we would not be among the companions of the Blaze.’ And they will admit their sin, so (it is) alienation for the companions of the Blaze." (Quran 67:10-11)

    Their prayers will be rejected:

    "They will say, ‘Our Lord, our wretchedness overcame us, and we were a people astray. Our Lord, remove us from it, and if we were to return (to evil), we would indeed be wrongdoers.’ He will say, ‘Remain despised therein and do not speak to Me.’" (Quran 23:106-108)

    After that, they will call the keepers of Hell asking them to intercede to God on their behalf for reduction in torment:

    "And those in the Fire will say to the keepers of Hell, ‘Supplicate your Lord to lighten for us a day from the punishment.’ They will say, ‘Did there not come to you your messengers with clear proofs?’ They will say, ‘Yes.’ They will reply, ‘Then supplicate (yourselves), but the supplication of the disbelievers is not except in error.’" (Quran 40:49-50)

    Their will even plead for their own destruction to relieve themselves of the pain:

    "And they will call, ‘O Malik, let your Lord put an end to us!’ He will say, ‘Indeed, you will remain.’" (Quran 43:77)

    They will be told the punishment will never be reduced, it is eternal:

    "Then be patient or impatient – it is all the same for you. You are only being recompensed for what you used to do.’" (Quran 52:16)

    They will weep for a long time:

    "So let them laugh a little and then weep much as recompense for what they used to earn." (Quran 9:82)

    They will weep until no tears are left, then that they will weep blood, which will leave its traces as described by the Prophet:

    "The people of Hell will be made to weep, and they will weep until they have no tears left. Then they will weep blood until they have, as it were, channels in their faces, if ships were put in them, they would float."

    There is much more. Search it up for yourself. Use terms like "Islam hell". I sincerely hope we won't have to go there.
     
  3. Theinquiringmind

    Theinquiringmind Fapstronaut

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    And how would one go about becoming one with God in heaven? Through never ending worship? And if it takes an eternity to become like God then no one is ever going to become perfect, so what's the point? A person will keep trying and trying but they'll never become perfect.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2018
  4. SolitaryScribe

    SolitaryScribe Fapstronaut

    Yes, but not in the sense of what you and I think of worship. There are different levels of prayer. The very basic level is saying words before we sleep or reading the scripture. This isn't exactly how God wants us to pray, but he wants us to grow in it.

    There is a level of prayer that doesn't require words, or any sort of thinking. It's just sitting in silence in awe of God's presence. There is also a level of prayer where you can enter into a trance, and have spiritual experiences. Almost like an out of body experience.

    If your interested to know more, you can read The Orthodox Prayer Life by father Mathew the poor, we was a mystic and a monk on the Egyptian desert who spend his life in contemplation and prayer.

    Worship in heaven is increasing spiritually in prayers, however your actually face to face with God so your worship is directly to him and in him. Imagine growing in love, knowledge and understanding and you become closer and closer to him and like him. Gaining his attributes over time. We don't become limited by our physical nature as we do here on earth. That means that fear doesn't exist, boredom doesn't exist. You will no longer have any need for things which are physical.

    You become a more superior you over time. More importantly is you become more loving over time. A type of love that is unfathomable to anyone living on earth.
     
  5. SolitaryScribe

    SolitaryScribe Fapstronaut

    God's perfection is limitless. No creation can attain it's fullness. However our goal isn't to attain God's fullness or merely to increase in divinity out of our own accord, that would make us gods as well which is not possible. Our goal is to partake in the fullness of God, which means that we share in his divinity and become one body. In other words the goal isn't the destination, its the journey. He willingly shares his divine attributes out of love. He took our fallen nature and gave us his divine nature.

    Because we are created our mere nature on its own cannot be divine and cannot encamp God's fullness. Nothing can encamp Gods fullness, but we can keep trying to get closer and closer.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2018
  6. EthanW.

    EthanW. Fapstronaut

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    "Who gets into heaven?"

    ...Interesting question.

    I suppose the answer is whoever believes they get into heaven. I've found the theological discussions taking root in this thread to be fascinating. They are fascinating in the sense that the human mind can span over so vast a cultural divide that there are reasons and beliefs about heaven that spring from every religious background on earth.

    Some say sprinkling water over a forehead begins a journey toward redemption necessary to enter heaven; some say a dedication to a moral standard and "good" works and actions get you into heaven; still others declare that only fervent subjugation to a holy manuscript will allow for a divine creator to acknowledge one of possessing the virtue required for heavenly citizenship.

    I think this thread captures a wonderful contrast in the evolution of human culture in its self-imposed designs to facilitate viable standards of behavior, in order to preserve the diverse societies that have arisen alongside those evolutionary factors. Very cool.

    Personally, I find heaven and hell to be what you make them on earth. Not very profound, but it works for me.
     
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  7. Castielle

    Castielle Fapstronaut

    Yes it does... but it's not about the "purity" of one's heart.

    Yes, you did assume that, and that's where you assumed incorrectly. That's not what I meant at all. I'm hoping you understand that now, or else I feel like everything I wrote in my last post was pointless....

    No, it's not the same.

    Saying that the purity of one's heart is what gets you into heaven implies that you have to have good morals and be essentially "pure" and holy and perfect, on your own. That is extremely different than saying that what gets you into Heaven is having a relationship with God. They're not even slightly the same thing, so this is a very important point that you're still misunderstanding.

    All I can say is, God knows the heart. And also, I feel like maybe you are picturing God not quite as a tangible, real being. If I'm talking to someone and they out their faith and trust in me, but they think my name is George, does it really matter that that's not my name? I don't know. I think God would have understanding of that, if it's someone who has never heard of Him by His name. Unless He directly recess His name to them, how would they know any better? Again, lets be clear that I'm talking about people who have never heard of God or Jesus before.

    That's a completely different situation. You keep conflating these examples as if they are the same, and they're not.

    You still aren't understanding. It's not about whether or not the heart is "good." Salvation has absolutely nothing to do with our goodness. It's all about God's grace and Jesus' sacrifice. I've talked a lot about this previously, so I'm not going to repeat it all, but you can yo back if you need to.

    If you know about the Christian God, and about Jesus, and choose to reject Him, that is not the same as someone who has never heard the good news. You have the opportunity to accept it, but you do not. That's your choice.

    Now you're adding other details and making up a hypothetical situation that didn't exist a minute ago.
    I'm finding this conversation frustrating, because it seems like you aren't really listening to anything I'm saying. I've already said so many times that it's not about your "heart being worthy," but you continue to bring that up again and again. I don't know how else to say it. Anyone else observing this miscommunication is free to jump in if you have a better way to explain it.
     
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  8. Castielle

    Castielle Fapstronaut

    Im not here to debate, but I think you should be clear that this is your opinion. In all my years of being a Christian, I've never heard such an idea. That doesn't mean you're wrong, you could be right. But it's not like some thing that was clearly stated in the Bible. This is all speculation and opinion.
     
  9. Castielle

    Castielle Fapstronaut

    This has been an incredibly interesting conversation, and honestly I'm still very unsure of many of my beliefs in this area. It's made me think a lot, and I'm certainly not done thinking and searching and praying about it.

    I found this article, and after reading most of it (haven't quite gotten through the whole thing yet), I'm still unsure of which side on which I stand. I see valid points on both ends, and they often seem contradictory. I'm really interested in this, and I would like to study it, but honestly, I tend to be leaning toward exclusivism, which would be contrary to what I've previously been arguing here. I think the 5th example in the article, regarding Acts 10, was particularly compelling to me in answering this question. Along with the conclusion of the author, as well.

    https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/what-happens-to-those-who-never-hear-gospel/
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2018
  10. Castielle

    Castielle Fapstronaut

    The above article also addresses, at the end, the argument of infants and the mentally disabled. They said it much better than I did.
     
  11. SolitaryScribe

    SolitaryScribe Fapstronaut

    its not actually my opinion at all. It's the common view of the early church fathers. I highly recommend "On the incarnation" by St. Athanasius. He's the guy responsible for the Nicene Creed. That book goes into depth for why the Word had to be incarnated into flesh and die the specific death of the cross. It also gives us a picture of what the true nature of sin is.

    I agree with you that the bible leaves out a lot of things, that's why there a lot of books that were written by the disciples of the people who wrote the bible. Their understanding of theology is immense, so i find it extremely helpful to supplement my views of the bible with reading these spiritual books.
     
  12. @Castielle You are very much fixating on that it is not purity what matters. Ok, fine. Let's say it isn't. I am not arguing that it is. I just said why I assumed it. Let's say I assume incorrectly. That's besides the pint...
    No, it's not important at all for this conversation. I don't see how it matters even in the slightest. It's irrelevant nuance. The bottom line is it's heart that matters.
    Ok, not about purity. But it's heart that matters. Can we agree on that? I mean You said it.

    Of course unless you are saying that the answer to my original question (what is it about knowing of existence of Jehovah that suddenly makes heart to not matter at all) lies in the in what is it in the heart that matters? Is that's what you're saying? If yes then sorry for misunderstanding you. If it is so then we can talk about what is it in heart that God cares about in more detail. But otherwise I don't see how it's relevant for the sake of this conversation. :/
    I also think they are not the same. It's just that something you said in your post implied comparison between them. So I asked to clarify. I mean I have to ask questions if I wanna understand what you mean... :p
    You asked a hypothetical question "How do you know that?" So I answered it with hypothetical answer. Makes sense to me. What's wrong about doing that lol?

    Can we just go back to thing what I originally was/am confused about? I still don't understand what you think is that which is so important about knowledge of existence of Jesus that it suddenly overrides the importance of heart? What is in that knowledge that changes things? There must be something, right? Not knowing of Jesus is an excuse for it being ok (as long as God sees heart and judges it as good )... why? What is it about ignorance of existence of Jesus that makes it excusable? And what is it about knowledge of existence of Jesus that suddenly makes it inexcusable, even if heart is still the same?

    One day local tribe people of Amazon jungle believe in God of their religion and has never heard of Christian God. God sees their hearts and judges them as good. They will be allowed in heaven. Then 24 hours later Christian missionaries come and preach Jehovah. Now the people of tribe know about Christian God. But they refuse that God and still stick to their God. Now they are not let inside of Heaven. What changed? Why their heart is not important to God anymore once they know of existence of Jehovah? Is it heart that got changed by that sudden knowledge? If yes then how? What is it that changes that suddenly not lets them in Heaven anymore?
    Yes, it should not matter that they call him George. They just don't know any better. But once they have heard his real name why it changes things?

    What if you would have children. You would let them live in your house as a loving mother should. But they think your name is George, because for whatever reason nobody ever told them your real name (they just call you mom, which would be equivalent of tribe people calling their god "God", instead of name like Jehovah or Zeus or whatever) and some troll told them that George is your name. Then you fixed the error by telling them that your real name is Castielle. But they did not believe you and still think your name is George, they believe that Castielle is some other mom that is not their mom. What's the justification for you to kick them out of your house? It's not like they are now not loving you anymore and disowning you, are they? They are just confused about names and does not know any better. Just as they were confused before. It's just then they did not know that they were confused. But now somebody tells them that they are confused and they do not believe that they are confused because they think they are right.

    I am listening carefully but I do not understand what is it about knowledge that is so important in your opinion. As far as I can tell nothing of what you said answers that question even in the slightest. All you are saying is "God knows your heart" and "to compare somebody who does not know of Christian God to somebody who knows of him but does not believe him is not the same thing". I get that. But I am not getting how it is different and why it makes so the heart not matters suddenly anymore?

    But hey, if I am frustrating you too much, and you think trying to explain this to me is futile endeavour, feel free to not reply to me anymore. I won't get upset. It's not like it's your moral obligation or something to enlighten some random guy on an internet lol. :p
     
  13. Castielle

    Castielle Fapstronaut

    That's because it's the absolute CORE of Christianity. Its literally the most important concept to understanding, regarding my religion. The fact that nobody can earn their way into Heaven by having a "pure heart" is the entire reason for the gospel, for Jesus' sacrifice. There's nothing more important than that, so if you don't understand that still, then I would recommend you focus on that point until you do. Nothing else matters if you don't understand that point.

    If you don't understand why that distinction matters, then I'm afraid I don't see the point of this discussion. Its literally the MOST important thing, regarding salvation.

    I don't understand this question at all. The wording of that is incredibly confusing.

    That wasn't a hypothetical question. You claimed to KNOW that anyone who believes in God but hasn't heard of the Bible believes in a different God than that of the Bible. I asked you how you know that. None of that was hypothetical.

    I've already answered this question extensively, several times. You just don't understand my answer.

    Look, I don't know how else to explain it. I've tried several times, in several different ways, and you still don't understand. I hope you can figure it out, but I don't know what else to tell you. I've tried. And if you don't get what is important about the concept of earning salvation vs salvation being a free gift of grace that we cannot earn, then I don't see the point in discussing this further. You're free to do your own research on the subject, but I've done my best to explain it to you, and I have nothing left to say.

    I posted an article above that explains this fairly well, I think. Originally I was arguing an inclusivist perspective, but now I'm leaning more toward exclusivism, given the information the article provides. But I feel it's still a bit murky and not 100% clear in the Bible.

    I'm not trying to be rude at all, but I don't think there's any other way I can explain it. I feel like I've explained it well and that there are a lot of core concepts that I've provided that you don't understand, or think are unimportant, so there's nothing else I can say.
     
  14. Survivalist

    Survivalist Distinguished Fapstronaut

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    Thread has been moved to the
    Interreligious Discussion Forums.
     
  15. I have read that book it was interesting and annoying at the same time. I don't think it explains those verses really or answers my questions. I am aware some say Jesus was talking about Gehenna when he talked about hell and he was saying your life will be like your living there if you disobey his teachings. But it doesn't matter if there's a literal fire or not because there will still be separation.
     
  16. Theinquiringmind

    Theinquiringmind Fapstronaut

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    Isn't it true that even the Bible it states that no one knows who will get into heaven anyway? I can't remember the scripture but it even says that Christians who think they'll get into heaven won't get into heaven when they're being judged by God so it looks like blessed assurance for a Christian kinda doesn't exist.
     
  17. Castielle

    Castielle Fapstronaut

    There is nothing in the Bible that says "Christians who think they're going to get into heaven aren't going to."
     
  18. Theinquiringmind

    Theinquiringmind Fapstronaut

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    I should have said it implied that Christians who think they'll get into heaven won't get there. Here's the scripture:
    Matthew 7:21-23 New King James Version (NKJV)
    I Never Knew You"
    21 “Not everyone who says to Me, " ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
    Now I know I might be taking it a bit out of context but it shows that even people who think they're saved aren't actually saved and it suggests that no one truly knows if they're saved or not because as stated in the passage, even those who think they're not sinning and they're doing God's will were actually not in good graces with God and were not actually saved, so who knows, someone might be doing good all their life but on judgement day they might have sinned against God and didn't know and were actually not saved when they thought or believed that they were.
     
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2018
  19. Castielle

    Castielle Fapstronaut

    Yes, I figured that's what you were referring to. But the way you said it was as if Jesus was saying that nobody who thinks they're getting into Heaven will actually get into Heaven.

    In this scripture, Jesus is referring to people who think they know him, but really dont. The people out there who call themselves "Christians," maybe because their parents raised them in the church or something, but they're not really walking with God at all and they haven't accepted Jesus as their savior.

    Also, you're still very focused on the mindset that good works are what saves you. You said that someone might have sinned and not known it, and therefore wont be saved, but that's not what saved us. We have all sinned without knowing it, that's a fact. Being free from sin is not what saves us. Its confessing our sins and accepting Jesus as our Savior to wash away those sins with his blood.

    And no, I dont agree with your assessment of the passage that nobody can possibly know if they are saved. That's not what its saying. Its saying that SOME people who think they are saved are not. I know 100% that I am saved by grace, through faith, and that I will be in Heaven when I die. I just do.

    This passage often reminds me of a very charismatic church in my town. They do things all the time there that are so totally not anything God has said to do, and it's very strange. They go out and make "prophesy treasure hunts" for themselves, declaring that they will find someone wearing a brown shirt that day, and when they do they will speak this message into their life and pray for them, and that is not always from God. Oftentimes it's just their own brains making crap up that God never told them to say, but they say "well God, I did this in your name!" and He says "well I never asked you to do that, and you weren't actually walking with me, you were just walking on your own and declaring that it was me when it never was." That's what I get from this passage. It doesn't mean that nobody can ever know if they're really walking with God or not, but that some people are deceived. And I know you're probably going to ask how I know that I'm not one of those people.... I dont really know how to answer that, but I just do. It's in the Spirit, and I know. I'm also not out there doing things and preaching things that are false doctrine and not what God has ever said or done or told me to preach, because I know Him.

    Dont get me wrong, I'm not against questioning things, but it kind of seems to me like you're coming up with every possible excuse in the book to not surrender your life to Jesus. And I hope you eventually stop fighting the call he's placing on you. He's clearly stirring your heart to be curious about these things. but your flesh wants to fight it.
     
  20. Castielle

    Castielle Fapstronaut

    Also, just to be clear, I dont believe everyone who goes to that church is not saved. I've met some people from that church who definitely know God and are walking with Him. But I think a lot of people there are deceived by the "spiritual" stuff they talk about that isn't Biblical at all (i.e. they have this weird gold dust that they claim is falling from Heaven and blessing the building or something like that, and they have a school of ministry that "teaches" people how to "prophesy" by rolling dice and song weird exercises like holding up a finger behind their back and having the other person "prophesy" what finger their holding up) and they're following that, not God. They think its God, but they haven't studied their Bibles enough to realize that God never approved of that stuff or said anything about any of that.
     

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