Who/what exactly are we when we masturbate?

Discussion in 'Problematic Sexual Behavior' started by ultrafabber, Dec 9, 2018.

  1. ultrafabber

    ultrafabber Fapstronaut

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    I made other topics on how masturbation is not normal or natural, but I still get this curiosity of what happens to out consciousness and ourselves when we masturbate.

    Obviously sex is a paired activity and it would not even exist if the purpose of mating was not there. So we already know following this reasoning that in sex you are one entity doing something to another one or vice-versa, another entity doing something to you. You are either active or passive. Generally the male will be the active one.

    Masturbation works against this because when we masturbate we are concomitantly active AND passive. We are the ones (we think) are penetrating a female while we are also the ones that are passive and being fcked by another female (the hand).

    It is rather obvious the fucking your hand thinking of something or someone else is abnormal in the first place, but what i am wondering is what happens to the way we perceive reality in doing so. Also, when you masturbate you actually jerk another penis, which is something a male would not do.

    As I said, we are doing an activity that is fundamentally paired and either exclusively passive or exclusively active and we are going against the very core of sex by mixing the two together.

    Basically, it's like you're saying or implying you're "we" instead of "I" and you get split into 2 entities
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2018
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  2. Gotham Outlaw

    Gotham Outlaw Fapstronaut

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    When you watch porn you are watching someone your attracted to get fucked by someone else. You are turning yourself into a cuck.
     
  3. Ra's Al Ghul

    Ra's Al Ghul Fapstronaut

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    Interesting analysis.
     
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  4. ultrafabber

    ultrafabber Fapstronaut

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    Yes this is something i've been writing for a long time. The question is whether it's porn or just watching pics or reading erotica or fantasizing... who are we when we masturbate? Cause we can't be just one person given how sex works.
     
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  5. This is a fascinating philosophical question, and I don't have an answer!

    However, you're wrong in saying that it's not normal. It's entirely normal — way more than 50% of the population does it. It's also quite common in the animal world.

    Whether or not it's healthy or desirable is a different question. It's not unhealthy in occasional doses without porn, but it might be undesirable. It's definitely unhealthy and undesirable in an addict or when used for the wrong reasons.
     
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  6. ultrafabber

    ultrafabber Fapstronaut

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    No, that's just a myth. I'll just paste two of my former comments on this subject.

    The studies you're thinking of have a very specific sampling, mainly a westernized world. The numbers are sadly to be expected given how intense the "sex positive" propaganda is and how Kinsey's fake studies influenced the western world.

    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/233315296_Masturbation_in_a_Generational_Perspective

    Masturbation was never common until very very recently and it's something that mostly happens in the western world due to "sex education"

    Humans are not MM-MF species (multi-male, multi-female). People did not have orgies since the beginning of time.

    Masturbation is extremely rare in the wild, it has been observed in mostly MM-MF systems in some species of apes (observed means that in some species SOME animals did it, it does not mean it's a common practice). Overall, animals just don't masturbate. It's like 99.99999999% just don't do it at all. ever

    Other species of apes don't masturbate at all.

    And the ones who do, very rarely do it with ejaculation.

    Masturbation is correlated with low ranking in monkey groups.

    You could say that some animals watch other animals have sex, but that doesn't lead to masturbation, let alone masturbation with ejaculation.
     
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  7. Are you defying nature by attempting asexual reproduction?
     
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  8. johndoe117

    johndoe117 Fapstronaut

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    It seems to me that masturbation is correlated with higher intelligence and higher social behavior. I couldn't quantify that but it's my hypothesis. For example masturbation among primates, we see it with dolphins as well, as well as sex for pleasure. I am massively under qualified to be talking about this.

    But for human masturbation, we know that the reward for sex is endorphins, dopamine, serotonin. It's cheating the system, because the reward is supposed to be to incentivize reproduction. I haven't observed personally that masturbation can be compulsive, pornography is compulsive, but I don't believe we can stigmatize masturbation in the same way we stigmatize PMO. Unfortunately for the majority of people, these two things are always linked together.

    Further, the stigmatization of masturbation itself has lead to a lot of men hiding their sexual behavior, repressing it and eventually compounding sexual issues. This is especially true for those of us raised religiously. Religion has a lot of merits, but I can speak for Christianity and Catholicism in the United State, religion has failed young men in understanding sexuality.
     
  9. That is what is indeed happening on the surface. But do men really think that way when they watch porn? I strongly doubt it.

    Questioning women and men watching porn has revealed that many men don't pay attention to the male model. They imagine themselves in the place of the male or they just look at the female and do their best to ignore the male.
     
  10. johndoe117

    johndoe117 Fapstronaut

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    @BartlebytheScrivener even if we're not consciously aware of the posturing we take when we are watching porn, it still may have a subconscious effect.
     
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  11. ultrafabber

    ultrafabber Fapstronaut

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    The fact that some monkey species never ever do it and some do it very rarely and ejaculation happens extremely rarerly contradicts your hypothesis. Dolphins don't casually masturbate, the fact that some dolphins have been spotted doing it does not mean it's a regular occurrence. The same way it doesn't mean people casually win the lottery because some very few people did.

    Masturbation is compulsive and PMO adiction is essentially a masturbation addiction (and fundamentally it's hypersexual disorder). Compulsive masturbation can even be induced with dopamine agonists among others.

    Masturbation is not healthy sexuality, masturbation is a perversion of sexuality. Furthermore, masturbation has been considered bad in all cultures, regardless of Abrahamic religions or no.
     
  12. johndoe117

    johndoe117 Fapstronaut

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    https://carta.anthropogeny.org/moca/topics/masturbation

    Nearly 100% of old world primates are observed masturbating to ejaculation.

    Also your statement that masturbation is considered wrong in all cultures is false. Look to Hinduism to find detailed spiritual studies involving masturbation.

    Look, I know you're looking for answers as we all are. But you're diametric response to masturbation is what leads to nuns slapping little boys knuckles telling them masturbation will send them to hell. I don't intend to demonize you, but look into the past decades of the culture we come from and ask yourself, 'is this a new thought or am I repeating the past'.
     
  13. I suppose that's why some men, such as me, don't watch porn with men in. Men turn me completely off, so when I've watched porn, it's always been women only. Even then, I don't like to watch a woman masturbate; a striptease, to me, is beautifully erotic. Such a shame that I have to stop watching porn (but I've committed 100% to no-porn for all the right reasons).

    This is fascinating — I've not read this before. Do you have a link, please?
     
  14. HybridOwl

    HybridOwl Fapstronaut

    I would second the above in that I usually don't have any men in the porn I watch for the same reason. It's usually either multiple women or solo.

    Nonetheless the OP raises a really interesting question. Who are we (or who do we become) when we watch porn. I'm sure someone's answered this in a sex-addiction book somewhere, but my ten cents is that when I watch "lesbian" porn I am basically making myself irrelevant. I am relegating myself to the voyeur, the observer, the invisible man. It is very passive.

    Sometimes I even started to see porn as this many-headed hydra that was starting to consume me and that became erotic in and of itself. I was getting off on my own being pathetic. I was getting off on not being in control. In that sense, I was actually being more than passive, I was being a slave to an oppressor. And I was getting off on being a slave. And yet, in some of the fantasties I was watching, it was about women degrading themselves so I could feel sort of superior to them in a way. And yet, I was sacrificing my own dignity to the altar. I thought I was owning them but in reality I was being owned and it was that kind of perverse inversion that was strangely arousing to me. Explains a lot why real intimacy just started to become meaningless to me. I needed the weird voyeuristic transaction.
     
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  15. Sharksvv

    Sharksvv Fapstronaut

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    I am not in the camp of believing that masturbation is evil and never to be done, there are many men who have healthy sex lives with fully functioning penises who masturbate. The key is not doing it too much along with the method of masturbation.

    Masturbation can be deemed healthy when it’s done very infrequently and it should be without visual aid/fantasy. The way in which one masturbates is also important, what’s known as the “death grip” does damage to the sensitivity of your penis and combined with pornographic visual aid/mental fantasy leads to a variety of porn induced erectile dysfunction issues.

    If a man is going to masturbate there are rules that need to be followed to maintain a healthy balance.

    1. Do it very infrequently (1 time every 2 months, 6 times total a year)

    2. Do it without visual aid and without fantasy, it should be entirely physiological. Do your eye lids need a machine to help them compete a normal function in blinking? No so your penis doesn’t need imagery and fantasy to perform a normal function in orgasm either.

    3. Do it without death grip, your hand shouldn’t aggressively squeeze your penis, no vagina in the world is that tight. Conditioning your penis to only get hard while it’s been squeezed and stroked in a hard aggressive manner is a recipe for PIED.

    If you stay away from porn and follow these rules you CAN masturbate and you CAN feel pleasure from it while still having no issues such as porn induced erectile dysfunction.

    I’m speaking from experience, I used to have PIED, I used to be addicted to weird fetish related porn genres for a decade, I went entirely hard mode for nearly 2 years. I recovered, I have a girlfriend now, I have successful sex with her every single time, I also follow the 3 steps above and have not cut out masturbation from my life entirely.
     
  16. SirErnest

    SirErnest Fapstronaut
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    Really good point. It's quite solipsistic actually.
     

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