Why Are You Conservative? / Why Are You Liberal?

Discussion in 'Off-topic Discussion' started by Deleted Account, Jun 9, 2017.

  1. Spiff

    Spiff Fapstronaut

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    The thing I don't understand about Christian conservatives is the whole redistribution of wealth upward thing. Seems to me like Christians ought not to be so stingy with social welfare and taxes and the like. I'm not necessarily making an argument for the effectiveness of social welfare programs... Just that it seems to me like many conservative Christians defend their purses like their own necks.

    Conservative Christians want to defend the life of a human until the moment it is born, and then if it would cost them as much as a penny to provide health care for that child, they are against it. It seems like they only want to defend life when it costs them nothing. I've got no problem with being pro-life, but show some consistency and continuity and be pro life throughout the life of a human, and put your money where your mouth is.

    I don't know the details of Buzz's politics, and am not saying anything about him personally, but I consistently find the conservative Christian thing to be anything but orthodox to Christianity.
     
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  2. Buzz Lightyear

    Buzz Lightyear Fapstronaut

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    Well, I am not an American, so I certainly wouldn't identify with the conservative Christian 'Right'. To my mind, American politics has devolved into a strange beast, and this is probably just the logic of mass politics. My 'conservatism' calls for the restoration of both Church and King.:rolleyes:
     
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  3. Agoodguy

    Agoodguy Fapstronaut

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    Church and King are together.
     
  4. Buzz Lightyear

    Buzz Lightyear Fapstronaut

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    The whole point of the Church was they were not.
     
  5. Agoodguy

    Agoodguy Fapstronaut

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    Oh yeah, I forgot. God is coming back and He is coming back for His Bride (The Church).
     
  6. Buzz Lightyear

    Buzz Lightyear Fapstronaut

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    Politics should not be based on abstract principles. It should have a pragmatic policy depending on where we are in the historical process.
     
  7. Spiff

    Spiff Fapstronaut

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    Are you English? You might have an uphill battle getting England to go back to the mother church.:p
     
  8. Buzz Lightyear

    Buzz Lightyear Fapstronaut

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    I belong to one of the old colonies. Yes, we are well past all that sort of thing in the historical process. There is the ideal and the real, and politics is the art of the pragmatic real.
     
  9. I was "progressive" from 12-15. As my mother kind of projected her views onto me.
    Half way through 15 yr old I was an edgelord for three months. Mainly as I started browsing/pol/.
    I was a MGTOW for 15-16. I got rejected a few times and I guess I was looking for an excuse.
    A libertarian for a few months. I guess I found the arguments had some merit economically.
    And now I'm far right. I was called a nationalist and so I read up on it to make better arguments against those calling me that, I ended up agreeing with some if the points.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 12, 2017
  10. No one should have too much power.

    That's basically it.
     
  11. If I was allowed to vote (can't because you need to be 18)
    id vote lib dems
    - not because im a supporter, its just I think they are the most dilute poison currently on a voting form
     
  12. stygian

    stygian Fapstronaut

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    Exactly. In the US, at least, the elites have succeeded in creating a false dichotomy. Everyone who has labeled himself a conservative can blame liberals, and liberals can blame conservatives (it is already happening in this thread), and long as there is an opposite side, everyone can feel confident that they are correct politically, even though they are not. 95% of Americans do not realize this.

    As soon as "liberal" or "conservative" is mentioned, people fall back to their preconceived stereotypes. But it is necessary to use these words, because if you didn't, people would connect their thoughts to conservatism or liberalism anyway, even though there should not be a connection.

    It sounds like for you, conservativism and liberalism begins and ends with politics as well. You say that liberal politics seems to show compassion. What about the US military interventions in Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, all pushed for by the Democratic party, which has led to the deaths of tens of thousands of Americans, plenty of civilians, and destabilized working countries. How about Obamacare, which is imploding on itself? There are regions without any health insurers in Obamacare. Is that compassion? What about the thousands of shootings in Chicago, which nothing was done about in the past 8 years of the Obama administration? How is abortion at any time compassionate (which is what the democratic congresspersons always vote for, in contrast to the great majority of Americans, both democrats and republicans)?

    You are projecting your own views. The heart of conservatism is arrogance and self-righteousness? This is a ridiculous statement on its own, but also you have believed the false dichotomy that was described earlier.

    I don't know what you mean by the "redistribution of wealth upward thing." Obviously the majority of Christian conservatives don't want wealth redistributed upward by the government. I don't know what you mean about taxes either. The problem has never been that the government doesn't take in enough taxes, the issue is that it squanders literally billions of dollars. If the government flushed $100 million USD down a toilet each day, 365 days a year, each morning at 900, what is the best solution? Should you increase taxes by $100 million USD a day to support it, or stop flushing the money down the toilet? About social welfare, one issue as food for thought, is that the expenditures for most of the major programs have dramatically increased, way out of line with inflation or any other marker, yet the outcomes have not shown to be any better. It is not sustainable to continue, and eventually there will be a collapse. Throwing money at a problem rarely makes it better. There are a plethora of examples of where most of the money in these programs go to pay administrators and don't make it to the people that it is supposed to support.

    It's quite easy to explain. The Congress is basically all controlled by special interest groups, who pay large amounts of money to the politicians to do whatever they want done.

    Some abstract principles are good and useful, like equality of individuals, freedom, and so on, which are not valued by the current US president.
     
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  13. lostandfound

    lostandfound Fapstronaut

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    conservative is being afraid of change. They have religious foundations and reject science. It hinders social progress and discriminates all undesirables. It is extreme consumerism and is just not sustainable. Liberal values seem normal to me. Putting the people first ahead of business, protecting the environment, helping the poor, giving health care seem like normal things to me. I dont understand why half the country wants giant corporations to prosper at the expense of small communities. Conservatives have turned America into this brainwashed, religious, militaristic place where people have access to assault rifles and are all addicted to opiods. It trips me out
     
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  14. SaintDaniel

    SaintDaniel Guest

    I'm a Conservative/Libertarian because I believe traditional family values and meritocracy are the keys to maintaining a sane and functional society.

    A good case for my point is the fact that egalitarianism and the sexual revolution eventually led to creation of communities like this.
     
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  15. stygian

    stygian Fapstronaut

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    I see liberal values as not being sustainable. They continually want to increase government spending despite that there is more debt than ever before - eventually it will lead to a collapse. Liberals don't put the people first ahead of business, haven't helped the poor, and haven't figured out a way to give health care.
     
  16. lostandfound

    lostandfound Fapstronaut

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    Liberals want to increase tax for the richest, conservatives give tax breaks for the richest. Liberals affordable health care act, conservatives repeal health care act. Liberals preach tolerance, conservatives discriminate. Liberals want more workers rights, conservatives disban unions. Liberals want aid programs for the poor, conservatives want to cut everything. liberals want government to spend more on sustainable energy and infrastructure maintenance, conservatives increase an already excessive military expenditure and build billion dollar walls. I dont really see what you are talking about
     
  17. JesusGreen

    JesusGreen Fapstronaut

    I tend to lean to the more left/liberal side of the spectrum on social issues. I believe in more social rights and freedoms. I believe people should be free to think what they like, behave sexually as they like, do with their bodies as they like, consume what they like.

    I also lean towards the more left/liberal side on things like healthcare and education. Having lived in the UK most of my life, I've come to see how useful public free healthcare is, and I feel tremendously sorry for people having to experience the US healthcare system, where a simple accident can lead to you being in debt for life due to ridiculous costs.

    I tend to lead more to the right/conservative side of things on subjects like taxation, business, property ownership etc. I don't believe increasing taxes for the wealthy is a good thing, nor placing unnecessary restrictions on businesses etc. While I was much more socialist leaning when I was younger, I'm now a firm supporter of capitalism and believe free market capitalism is the best way to do things.

    I guess if I had to put myself in a box I'd say that I would be closest to a Libertarian.

    I'm certain it has, although my views have long since changed from the ones I held growing up.

    I don't think so.

    Absolutely, many times. When growing up I was very much into socialistic ideals. Everyone getting the same amount of pay, getting free housing, etc. Or taxing the rich to give to the poor. I was not a big fan of capitalism and thought it was a corrupt system. Growing up and maturing and learning how the system really works I now no longer hold those views, and on the contrary believe that socialism leads to more corruption. After all, pay everyone the same, and no-one will want to work any harder than the next man. Pay everyone the same and you will get no great men or women who strive to make something astonishing of themselves.

    I used to also think money was evil, when I now see money as a positive thing. It can certainly be used badly, but it is like a car. A car is a useful tool for transportation in the right hands when used correctly, and a violent multi-ton death trap when used incorrectly. Money is similar. Money is never evil, just some people use it for that. I now believe that people should certainly pursue things like wealth etc, as long as their interest in wealth isn't based on the misguided perception that money will bring them happiness. Cultivate happiness within first, then seek wealth, success, etc.

    The only thing I know for certain is that I know nothing for certain!

    So of course. My picture of the world always becomes more complete as I age and experience more of the world. I must accept that I am working with an incomplete picture, and could be wrong about certain things. So I am always open to changing my beliefs should I be faced with new and better information about the world.

    For this same reason I also try not to judge others for their beliefs. As for one, I could be wrong, and two, if they're wrong it's just because the picture of the world they have at this moment is incomplete and led them to certain beliefs. It is not because either of us is a better or worse person than the other.
     
  18. HappyDaysAreHereAgain

    HappyDaysAreHereAgain Fapstronaut

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    I used to be more concerned about political positions, and then Clinton ran to unseat Bush. Mid summer, when Clinton had no chance of winning, i asked an older foreign friend what he thought of our election. He replied that he thought that the powers that be would have Clinton elected; incredulous, I asked why. He explained to me how Clinton could be more easily controlled, and if he ever stepped too far out of line, he would find himself on the front page of newspapers in a sex scandal. Since then I have watched for the powers that be. They have kept getting richer as they have convinced most of us of their benevolence through trickling down little blessings. Living in the basement of a privy, we know that what trickles down is no blessing, but we get excited about the little blessings and keep ignoring the reality around us as we fight with each other over liberal or conservative.
     
  19. stygian

    stygian Fapstronaut

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    Sorry, but this is practically all false.

    Liberals have never passed affordable healthcare. Everyone agrees that Obamacare is crumbling, anyone could pass legislation that promises to "solve all the problems" and then collapses in 2 years.

    You say liberals preach tolerance, yet they are in favor of abortion across the line - interesting how no one who is aborted can argue for their rights. Democrats have always advocated for abortion at any time - even when the baby is fully formed and perfectly viable. Almost everyone agrees that it is murder. The VAST majority of Americans, I believe 80-90%, do not believe in abortion at that stage.

    You say "Liberals want more workers rights, conservatives disban unions.", yet why have studies never shown any benefit to workers from unions? Do you see that this is more eye candy, the democrats want you to think that they are fighting for worker rights. Yet why have worker wages not increased (actually I believe they have decreased) in the past several DECADES, despite plenty of democratic administrations?

    "Liberals want aid programs for the poor." Again, why do we still have such a problem of poor people when the amount of money spent into these programs have exploded over the past few decades? How is it that the problem is perhaps even worse now, despite huge increases in funding over time?

    "liberals want government to spend more on sustainable energy"
    This is your only correct point, conservatives have really been idiots when it comes to this issue, and have been obstructionist.

    "and infrastructure maintenance"
    conservatives believe in infrastructure spending as well.

    "conservatives increase an already excessive military expenditure"
    You have this absolutely backwards. Look at military expenditures and how it relates to democratic and republican administrations. It has increased substantially across both, especially during the Obama administration. Clinton is one of the most war-mongering politicians. She strongly advised for much of the middle east intervention that has had catastrophic consequences, and seems to have no remorse for it.

    "build billion dollar walls"
    The only person who is interested in this is Trump, not conservatives.
     

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