Why baptism is fucked

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  1. onceaking

    onceaking Fapstronaut

    So it's kind of pointless if you're going to look at porn after having it. Churches and Christians shouldn't pressurized people to get baptized.
     
  2. onceaking

    onceaking Fapstronaut

  3. Castielle

    Castielle Fapstronaut

    No, it's not pointless. It's exactly what I said it is. We are imperfect sinners. Baptism doesn't magically change that, and it's not meant to. It's a symbol that shows where our hearts are. That doesn't mean we will never sin again.
     
  4. Castielle

    Castielle Fapstronaut

    The Bible talks about baptism a LOT, and it is clearly very important to God. Sorry if you don't like it, but there is nothing wrong with the Church urging people to do what God has told us to do. If you don't even believe in it and you think it's pointless, then why do you even care anyway? From your perspective, a dude is dunking another dude under water for a second, and that's it. How is that harmful, and why do you care if people do it?

    I agree that people shouldn't be, quote, "pressured" into it, just as they shouldn't be pressured into accepting Jesus as their Savior, because then it's meaningless if they didn't even want it. But there's nothing wrong with the Church telling Christians what the Bible says, which is that baptism is important to God and he wants us to do it.
     
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  5. Max Fisher

    Max Fisher Fapstronaut

    Not selecting a faith for your child is still choosing for your child. Inaction is still an action. Choosing not to do something is still choosing.

    Conscientiousness is synonymous with choice. You are equally likely to have a child that grows up to resent the fact you didn't baptize him. Such is life.

    Decisions must be made...
     
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  6. Max Fisher

    Max Fisher Fapstronaut

    @wethebest what is preferable? A child baptism with no corresponding instruction or devotion? Parents who dunk their kids and then never set foot in a church again?

    Or

    No child baptism but they are brought up in church and a faith?

    @Castielle, setting aside baptism as a choice later down the road doesn't absolve you or the core decision to instruct them. To instruct children is still to decide for them. This cannot be truly reconciled because to live your faith is to raise them in faith, with or without baptism. Switching to a different christian view of infant baptism doesn't solve the fundamental question.
     
  7. Castielle

    Castielle Fapstronaut

    Lol what? Of course it doesn't... that's a parent's entire job. How on earth did you get that from what I said?

    Okay... let's be clear here. I honestly don't think there's anything particularly "wrong" with baptizing a baby. In other words, it's not going to harm them. They can still grow up to be an atheist if they want to. I just think it's pointless, because baptism doesn't mean anything if you don't even know what you're doing.

    I'm not going to get into the other debate you're hinting at here. It's a stupid one. People teach their kids stuff all the time that other people disagree with. It's comoeltelt unavoidable. If I teach my kid God exists, atheists will say I'm indoctrinating them. If someone else teaches their kid that God doesn't exist, Christians will say they're indoctrinating them.

    I think people majorly overreact about this stuff. Kids are going to grow up eventually and be able to make their own decisions. Plenty of kids from Christian homes have grown up to reject God, and plenty of kids from atheistic homes have grown up to accept God. You're not ruining your kids life by teaching them something you believe in. And it's a pointless arguement to have, because you can't possibly avoid it. You have to teach them sometime. Not teaching them about God is no better than teaching them God doesn't exist in my eyes, and if you're wrong and He does exist, then you're really screwing over your kid by not teaching them that. Everyone has an opinion on that, and I'm not going to argue over who is right or wrong about teaching their kids.
     
    Max Fisher likes this.
  8. Max Fisher

    Max Fisher Fapstronaut

    This is what @wethebest said...

    It misleading that baptism is the core issue. Its about being raised in faith. That was my point. Saying infant baptism is biblical or not biblical etc. is not really his core problem.

    So if you believe this...

    Then any discussion about when someone gets baptized misses the point of this thread. @wethebest said it best when he said...

    To which the only real answer is. Parents make decisions for their kids that they think are best. Choices must be made. :) Im pretty sure you already agree.
     
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  9. Castielle

    Castielle Fapstronaut

    Well, I realize what his core issue is, because he is an atheist and very clearly doesn't like people teaching their kids about God. But I don't agree with that, so I chose to focus on the part that I do agree with, so we could find some common ground.
     
    Max Fisher likes this.
  10. Max Fisher

    Max Fisher Fapstronaut

    I see. Thats a good strategy.
     
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  11. wethebest

    wethebest Fapstronaut

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    So then confirmation is supposed to be a symbol then i suppose?
    I usually wouldn't respond to this bc you didnt @ me. But very wrong on both counts. & idk what gave you this implication in the slightest.

    But to set the record straight, there's other religions except for Christianity other than atheism. Im currently exploring those other options, but i align w deism closest at the moment i suppose. Only one that makes sense if religions were intended to be so literal as people think they are. And deism is the legitimate opposite of atheism. A god exists, look around you outside. Look at things on a biological standpoint. Its clear as day theres a "God."

    Also i have zero issues with people teaching their kids about God. Im mindblown why you jumped to these conclusions. And im even more mindblown on why you wouldnt @ somebody when talking about them. But you do you
    Last sentence steady facts. Facts if you believe in the bible that is, which i dont. Better yet, i just think the bible was written by the originators of the religion and originally intended to be in a figurative manner. I wont. But i could take this time to list the multiple reasons as to why... but nah
     
  12. wethebest

    wethebest Fapstronaut

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    & babies have zero clue whats happening so it is pointless in that sense and pressuring, without quotation marks.
    Sure. But the question is about the mothers that force their baby to do it. & i was just saying its fucked up. Do i want to outlaw it or get the church to stop infant baptism, not necessarily.
    But you can make a choice by not assigning your child a relgion like a meat deli ticket & sit them down and tell them that there's ALOT of different religions and they must decide for themselves when they become an adult. You know... like a rational adult.
    Out of those the last one. I dont mind a parent who has major faith raise their kid the way they live, as long as they have that talk of exploring their own way.
    This doesn't really happen that often. Atheists dont push that mindset on their kids that much.
    It depends. I can tell you some stories of kids growing up w strict religious parents and it fucked them up mentally. Multiple stories. But to be fair, theres great stories as well.
     
  13. wethebest

    wethebest Fapstronaut

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    @Castielle idk, i think we all on the same page
     
  14. Max Fisher

    Max Fisher Fapstronaut

    This was not what I was expecting! Interesting! Do you believe baptism imparts something objectively and intrinsically spiritual?!

    You say that you don't believe in the Bible yet your preference would be to raise a child in faith, WITHOUT baptism, rather then baptize a child and raise them without further instruction in a faith. Why would that be?

    I realize there is the third dimension of talking about other options, which regardless of when you baptize can be included in your child's instruction. I also agree it should be. Besides there is no better way to highlight truth then by comparing it to the available alternatives, whatever they are.

    If baptism is just a silly ritual with water that an infant would arguably not even remember, why would the second option be preferable to the first? In a sense it is more then for the parents, but you seem intent on it being "fucked up" for the child. Why?

    Also, what's your stance on infant circumcision? That's a choice I would have liked to have to myself. ;)
     
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  15. Castielle

    Castielle Fapstronaut

    I'm not exactly sure what "confirmation" is. I'm not Catholic.

    I apologize if I made any false assumptions. I really thought from a lot of things I've seen you say around here that you were an atheist, and most atheists don't think it's good for people to indoctrinate children with religion. But again, I'm sorry if I was wrong about that. I may be mixing you up with someone else.

    I don't see why you're so upset about the @ thing though. This is your thread... you get alerts when people post. It's not like I was talking about you behind your back. I knew you would see that. I didn't think it was necessary to tag you in it, since I wasn't even talking to you and I knew you would see it anyway. I didn't mean anything disrespectful by not tagging you. It's like like I was being sneaky or something, saying something about you on your own thread. None of that was meant as any kind of insult. I was just stating something I thought was true, but I guess I was wrong. But either way, I wasn't intentionally being rude or disrespectful by not tagging you in a post that wasn't directed at you and that I knew you would see.

    I mean, even if you don't believe in the bible, it would be silly to say the church is wrong for teaching people something the bible says to do. That's the whole point of the church. I think we agree on that.

    I don't really see it as pressuring, personally. Babies have no idea what's going on. Being dunked in some water means nothing to them, so I don't see how it could pressure them.

    I know that's what you were saying. My post you quoted was not directed at you.

    I really beg to differ on that, but it's not worth the argument.

    That's not a matter of it being wrong that they taught their kids about God, that's a matter of them being wrong in the manner in which they taught them. which is an entirely different conversation. I'm definitely not arguing that everyone out there who believes in God is teaching their kids in a healthy way.

    Not on everything, but that's fine. I'm not here to try to argue. I just came in here to tell you I agree with you about baptisizing babies, and to let you know that the Bible agrees with you as well.
     
  16. wethebest

    wethebest Fapstronaut

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    It doesnt matter what i believe. Ive always been under the impression that catholics believe that all humans were born w original sin and that baptism in a sense "washes away" that sin. However, i dont really believe in that.

    I dont think ot was intended to be symbolism as @Castielle said earlier (although she mightve been not referring to catholism). In catholism, its not just water. Its holy water. Thats not just symbolism. Its supposed to wash away original sin and purify yourself for god. So all the other suckers that didnt get baptized have original sin.

    Now if your question is what i believe... i believe its all symbolism (same w the bible).
    I dont think catholism is evil or immoral. I think, like any big organization, it has some discrepancies. Overall i think catholism (and Christianity) has good morals to raise kids up in.

    I choose that option bc the other one didmt make much sense to me. Why would you baptize a child but not practice or affiliate w that religion any longer? I view infant baptism as a entry point into a religion. I was also coerced into "confirmation" which i view as a cinfirmation of your faith, same idea.

    I dont think raising a child in faith is bad. I think when it starts restricting and inhibiting your everyday life then it becomes a problem. So raise the child and be loving and accepting if your child wants to explore or align w another religion (including atheism)
    Its how its done. If the parents are "two-timers" (what my grandma use to call people that are catholic but go to church only twice a year, xmas and easter) but align catholic. They can baptize their child, wash away og sin, and just go biannually. They can let the kid form his own opinions and go oit and explore instead of limiting him. Versus a strict couple who forces prayers, refusal of oitside religious opinion, etc.

    The post perhaps shouldve been strict religious parents restricting kids are fucked uo versus the ritual of baptism itself. Bc baptism isnt harmful in that sense
    I have no idea man haha honestly haven't done research or have enough knowledge to give an articulate stance. Like, at all.
     
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  17. Castielle

    Castielle Fapstronaut

    No, that's a Protestant belief as well.
     
  18. wethebest

    wethebest Fapstronaut

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    When youre a teenager you have to "confirm" your religion to catholism. Have to isnt the right word, more like strongly encouraged. It was a big thing. I had to take classes before on the catholic relifion and had to go to a serbice where the preists asks me questions and i answer yes. Basically just to see if youre still on board w the religion.
    You good
    You good, i mightve overreacted a bit
    Yes that would be silly
    What religion are you? (If you dont mind me asking). In catholism, it's not just some water. It's holy water. That i thought washed away original sin. Baptism has a purpose in catholism.
    Yeah we're on the same page. Same w parents not teaching about God.
    An important question is, is not teaching your kids about god teaching them not to believe in god? The answer of that determines the answer of the other question.
    Well i guess we all sitting good then
     
  19. letter

    letter Distinguished Fapstronaut

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    Oh dude, no, that's not it -- at least not really it.

    You gotta go back to what baptism was before Jesus showed up and turned it into a major religious symbol. John the Baptist too! Where did John the Baptist get the whole concept of baptism from??

    A little poke at this from the Bible: "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but after me is coming He who is mightier than I, of whom I am not worthy to carry the sandals. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire." - John the Baptist, Matthew 3:11

    So right from scripture, there are already 2 different baptisms going on. It's not like this was a new thing. So if you were a Jew in those days, and you heard about John baptizing, what would be the image in your mind of what it meant? That is what needs to be understood before trying to really understand what being baptized in a religious sense is all about.

    The most powerful image of what baptism really is comes from the Jewish traditions of marriage. To make it really short and sweet for you, the bride would undergo a baptism before consummating the marriage as a symbol of exiting one life and going into another life, from leaving the covering of her father and entering the covering of her husband.

    So then you take this concept and look at how much of the message of Jesus was about marriage. Baptism in the Christian sense is about exiting our past lives to entering into a new way of life where we wait upon the day where God will come and "seal the deal" so to speak.

    There is soooooo much more to it. And this is part of why infant baptism doesn't make sense. Jewish women had a conscious choice to accept the arrangement their father's made on her behalf. We too, knowing what baptism REALLY means, should only enter it knowing what we are putting ourselves into.

    It is like we say "I am now the bride of God"

    Not something an infant should do lolololololol
     
  20. Castielle

    Castielle Fapstronaut

    I'm a Protestant Christian. I don't believe in holy water, and yes, I know Catholics believe that you are not saved until you're baptized. Protestants don't believe that.

    I'm not exactly sure how I would answer that, honestly. I think in a way it kind of is. Or at the very least, it's very neglectful. I mean I fully believe that God is real, so I think not teaching your kid about God is as wrong as not teaching them math or history or anything else. Sure, they can learn it when they grow up, but it would be better if parents prepared their kids for their future and taught them truth.
     

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