Why do humans enjoy being serfs?

A group for members of all religions, or no religion at all, to talk about religion

  1. Theinquiringmind

    Theinquiringmind Fapstronaut

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    Yeah it is starting to look as though humans may be an error in the ecosystem but who knows. If the God of the Bible exists then I'm not gonna be thrilled either about standing in judgement in front of Him.
     
  2. Max Fisher

    Max Fisher Fapstronaut

    I disagree. Many times Jesus revealed who he was and it was that he did reveal himself that got him killed. Blasphemy was the charge against because he spoke with the authority to forgive sins, something the Jews believed only God could do. He did not hide. He even boldly asked why they came to arrest him like a criminal at night when he had been preaching day after day at the temple. People would have no problem killing God, you give people too much credit. I love Jesus and still kill him in my heart whenever I sin against him.

    I do not agree with Calvin or the other reformers. Predestination is an extremely hard concept but these explanations might help https://forums.catholic.com/t/predestination/196338
     
  3. Theinquiringmind

    Theinquiringmind Fapstronaut

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    Fine, I was wrong, I admit it.
     
  4. Fenix Rising

    Fenix Rising Fapstronaut

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    I believe organized forms of religion were created to control people's thoughts and behaviors, so ruling class powers would not be questioned and challenged by their subordinates. If you read bible from social standpoint, Christ was basically socialist and anarchist, far, far away from (neo)conservativism and would probably hate hierarchic structure of todays church and western society. We live illusion of free society. Fear of god and chains were preplaced by instrument of financial debt and media brainwashing to keep societies in check, neoliberal agenda, capitalism and consumerism are new god, not to be questioned, otherwise you're quickly labeled as red scum, weirdo or even foreign agent who has no place at the table. Our so called freedom of choice is closer to this brilliant animated representation of our time by Steve Cutts:

     
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  5. Theinquiringmind

    Theinquiringmind Fapstronaut

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    Yeah I know, from what I've read on the Bible Jesus definitely did seem to be a revolutionary socialist if you look at Him from a socio-political standpoint. And i totally knew that capitalism and consumerism have people in chains and actually the entire Federal Reserve Banking System is a nonsensical debt creating loop that was created to keep people financially enslaved to the government... there really is no such thing as a free capitalist society.
     
  6. Roady

    Roady Fapstronaut

    Yes so?
    God didn't kill anybody as that is against His nature.

    That was the point I was mentioning.
     
  7. Roady

    Roady Fapstronaut

    How do you know so sure you are damned by God?

    (you are neglecting my former answers, do you be conscious about that sir?)

    If you are thinking you know about the predestination, that is what we call haughtiness. You know it better than God. You place yourself above God. But that gives you a lot of benefits too....

    Come on. Challenge God to revelate Himself to you.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2018
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  8. Max Fisher

    Max Fisher Fapstronaut

    I am extremely skeptical of government. What would you do? Revolution? Revelation? Start a non profit? Start a commune? Squat? Steal?
     
  9. Theinquiringmind

    Theinquiringmind Fapstronaut

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    I don't know what the solutions are or ought to be but capitalism as it is right now does not equate to freedom.
     
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  10. Max Fisher

    Max Fisher Fapstronaut

    He didn't? Again I think we are splitting hairs but God sent a flood and killed people. That doesn't mean he is not good or merciful. It means he is just, which is another part of God nature. God gives and takes away. He blesses and condems. He judges and forgives. I don't think we actually disagree. We are just debating semantics.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2018
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  11. Fenix Rising

    Fenix Rising Fapstronaut

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    I'm waiting for next financial crisis to hit us hard. It should be around a corner by now with FED starting to rise rates and ECB quitting QE. Central banks have kicked can down the road since 2008, but underlying systemic risks in banking sector and inequality issues remained largely unaddressed with public debts skyrocketing. When it hits us, I'll join the protests on the streets, demanding deep changes in system and this time around I don't believe governments will be able to suppress people's voices that easily. But we should be aware of far right rising up. When capital centers start to feel threatened, they tend to let ultra nationalist take control of governments and state repression follows soon after. Seeing heavily armed policemen on the streets of Europe's cities on daily basis, I'm not convinced they're there only to discourage from terrorist acts.
     
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  12. Max Fisher

    Max Fisher Fapstronaut

    @HoplessCase101, @Brokenman123 would you both agree more individual liberty is needed, not less? It sounds like you would. As far as critiques of capitalism, I would need to know your positions on property rights. In general free markets are unavoidable because all they represent are decisions and exchanges between people....as long as they are free to make decisions and free exchanges. But, capitalism is not perfectly synomoneous with free markets as you know, however it is generally embraced more readily in capitalist systems.

    Last caveat, how do free markets exist without property rights? But maybe you are against free markets, I don't know...
     
  13. Fenix Rising

    Fenix Rising Fapstronaut

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    I worked in post insurance/bank business most of my adult life and I can tell you that so called free markets are rigged to begin with. In order to have fair free markets participants must have the same amount of information, but that's obviously not the case. We, for example, didn't even bother having clients with less then 500 mio € on their balance sheets. If you wanted to get access to our database and analysis, you had to be big enough. With our knowledge our clients automatically gained competitive advantage over smaller market participants who couldn't afford such access.

    I believe in property rights, BUT personal wealth should be highly taxed and redistributed by state, something like Denmark model today. This helps to address inequality issues. Also markets regulating supply and demand is so 19th century concept. For the first time in human history automation and algos allow us to plan production capacities much better than inefficient markets do. We have big problem on demand side now, how are we fixing it?... by subsidizing supply side with QE and zero interest rates. In other words, we're not solving it, just maintaining status quo by skyrocketing public and households debts. We need completely new preplaned global economical system, neoclassical one has become obsolete in 20th century and we still hang onto it, because we have no idea how so implement new one.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2018
  14. Roady

    Roady Fapstronaut

    Yes, you are right with this.
    I was talking about the death of Jesus, but wasn't correct in my words.
     
  15. MLMVSS

    MLMVSS Fapstronaut

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    You do know the Fed is a mixture of corporatist and Marxist beliefs, yeah? A pure free market wouldn’t have central planning, but rather competition for your savings.
     
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  16. Max Fisher

    Max Fisher Fapstronaut

    If the state can take away my wealth by threat of violence, then aren't they violating my property rights? Why cant I hold a group of people (government) accoutable for the same things as an individual? How is taxation different from theft or extortion?

    I only see this as the market improving itself. How did the automation and innovation of better algos come to exist if not through market incentive and allowing people the freedom to create? Because algos are now part of the free market and allow better decision making does not invalidate the free market. It actually proves that it works as a tool to improve things...even itself.

    This has been tried. How can detached central planners determine better what I want or need better then I can? Surely you are not afraid of giving control to people over their own lives and destinies. How would this play out without more coercion then we already experience?

    Also, equality through redistribution does not really make people free. It's just renaming the chains. Instead of slaves to companies through debt they are slaves to the government through dependence. Wouldn't you want people to be independent, self determined and free to make their own choices with the resources they own and helped create?
     
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  17. MLMVSS

    MLMVSS Fapstronaut

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    No. If people want money, they should work for it. Capitalism isn’t perfect, but it’s shown through our experiences that it works better than socialism or communism.

    Guess which century the Industrial Revolution was part of?
    Except those robots don’t produce capital for you. Those “inefficient markets” do that.

    Exactly. If anything, redistribution negatively impacts the creative, innovative individuals in favour of the workers who are more easy to replace. Which is, of course, why a CEO makes more than a fruit picker. Anyone who has the physical strength to move can pick fruits. They don’t need $30/hr pay or something ridiculous. But not everyone can be in the office potentially 80+ hours a day then on the phone for much of the remaining time, and the first POC when anything goes wrong at any location.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2018
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  18. Theinquiringmind

    Theinquiringmind Fapstronaut

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    I'm not against free markets but the other guy is right about it being kinda rigged because of assymetric information among all relevant parties. And I'm not sure about
    income redistribution... I'd have to look into it before I can make a proper judgement about it but you do make some good points against it above.
    Right it's better to have competition for people's savings rather than a debt creating monopolistic enterprise that enslaves the majority of persons in the economy.
     
  19. Fenix Rising

    Fenix Rising Fapstronaut

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    11 out of 15 most productive countries in the World have high level of wealth redistribution through taxes. That's why you don't see many baggers on streets of Germany, Denmark, Sweden, Finland, France, Austria... Besides that, average standard of living in those countries is much better then in US. They have better social services, health services, transport infrastructure, free graduate and postgraduate education, high social inclusion, low crime rate...
     
  20. Max Fisher

    Max Fisher Fapstronaut

    All the things you described are true about the US comparatively and as averages. The US form of "rigged" free markets is not something Im prepared to defend. The concept of free markets if they are truly free is another thing. Where does the money these wealthy European citizens make to pay their taxes come from, if not these same rigged free markets? Do you want to get rid of the system or steal money from it in the form of taxes? If you get rid of it where is the tax money going to come from?
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2018

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