Why do humans enjoy being serfs?

A group for members of all religions, or no religion at all, to talk about religion

  1. Brokenman123

    Brokenman123 Fapstronaut

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    Don't we always say that any good person who stands aside and watches as innocent, good people suffer are just as culpable as the person doing evil? So how this doesn't apply to God in certain instances of evil doing and suffering?
     
  2. Max Fisher

    Max Fisher Fapstronaut

    He does allow that. My wife was baptized for the first time last year and she's 32. But here are some things to consider in your statement and I would sincerely appreciate direct answers, since I've c ontinued to respond and engage your questions as directly as possible:

    1. Is baptism nessecary?

    2. At what age can you make a conscience choice and what is your need for salvation until then?

    3. What about people who can never make a conscious choice? Mentally ill, disabled etc.?

    4. What is original sin? When do we get it imparted to us? What is the biblical punishment for it?

    5. Did you actually read the articles I linked?

    6. What is the criteria for accepting him in your heart? How do I know if I've actually done it?

    You kinda asked these questions before and answered them but what do you think after talking?

    Follow this logic:

    1. People are born into original sin

    And...

    2. God punishes people for original sin

    And...

    2. They don't have a choice to be born

    And...

    3. Salvation is a free gift that is unearned

    But....

    4. They must wait until they have a chance to understand and accept him?

    Everything above the "but" is not a choice right? It's the rules of the situation. So if the bottom one is the only choice we have why is God so concerned with that choice? It seems to me like he painted us into a corner and then gave us only one option. How is that choice?

    To me choosing is not the issue. Important, but not strictly nessecary because if we continue to live we will have ample opportunity to affirm our baptismal promises. Rather the question of access and the "how" of grace answers this question. As you may have already guessed we have no way of knowing who actually chooses anyways, even as adults. They could "accept" him and be deceiving everyone. But how do they actually receive it? How is grace transferred? The normative way is baptism, but those are the rules we are bound by and can rest assured in. As stated before God can do what he wants, it's his grace. People can go to heaven without it in theory, but those are exceptions not the rule. We can only advocate the known path spelled out in the bible and that requires baptism.

    I want to know your thoughts...as much fun as it is spouting mine. ; )
     
  3. Max Fisher

    Max Fisher Fapstronaut

    This is pretty good. We do say that. We say "I confess to almighty God and to you my brothers and sisters that I have greatly sinned. In what I have done and what I have failed to do." But "just as culpable" I'm not so sure....maybe.

    How does this relate to God? By not intervening has he sinned now? Interesting. I don't think it squares with the cross. There is redemption and resurrection at the end of suffering. In other words God always has the final say. He does nothing to stop suffering on earth, but God does what we could never do. He turns suffering into redemption. He conquers sin and death. Is he then to bare responsibility for a sin or praise and glory for saving us? I guess it depends when you think the play is over and the curtain closes. Without the resurrection you'd be right, but "not doing something" wasn't the story. He did do something...three days later, and he does it for us too. Suffering isn't the end. However in the moment it can appear as an uncaring God who is doing nothing but allowing evil.
     
  4. Brokenman123

    Brokenman123 Fapstronaut

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    Idk. I don't think so. It's important but I don't think it's necessary.
    Idk. It depends... For everyone that age would differ... Maybe when they become a teenager.
    I don't think they should be baptized without understanding what it entails.
    Isn't original sin the concept that all humans born after Adam and Eve have inherited a sinful nature? I guess people would get imparted with it at birth and the biblical punishment for it is hell.
    TBH, I just skimmed through them.
    I honestly don't know.
    I meant just as culpable if they had the power to be able to do something about the situation. I would think that you would agree that anyone who has the power to stop injustice but does not stop it is just as culpable as those who do it right?
    Well let's think about it: God is all-knowing which means He knew ahead of time what would happen, God imparted each human being with "free will" which is a mechanism through which they can do both good and bad acts and finally God is omnipresent (which means He's there when evil acts are occurring), omnipotent, willing to stop evil and injustice and all-good yet He does nothing most of the time when evil occurs (granted humans can stop certain types of evil and injustice ourselves) but other times only God can stop certain types of evil and injustice so therefore can be just as culpable?
    And with regards to injustice and suffering, it is often said that justice delayed is justice denied, so when God delays justice can it be said that He's denying justice?
     
  5. Brokenman123

    Brokenman123 Fapstronaut

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    Also, this unrelated but how does Jesus' sacrifice atone for the sins of all mankind? In order for it to be a true substitutionary sacrifice shouldn't Jesus have spent eternity in hell rather than three days? How does three days make up for eternity?
     
  6. Buzz Lightyear

    Buzz Lightyear Fapstronaut

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    Asking the same old questions... I remember reading and replying to these in another thread.
     
  7. Brokenman123

    Brokenman123 Fapstronaut

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    No the questions in the other thread were different... They were about the Trinity and morality and stuff not baptism.
     
  8. Max Fisher

    Max Fisher Fapstronaut

    @Brokenman123, let me summarize your position. Ive rearranged the answers a little, but tell me if I'm correct.

    1. We inherit original sin at birth and the punishment is hell, for every person born.

    2. Baptism is not nessecary to remove original sin.

    3. People who consciously choose to accept Jesus can be saved but the age to do this differs.

    Following this logic then not everyone has access to salvation. If they die too young or can't understand then they are SOL. Why exactly do you believe this? Is it in the bible or you are just guessing after you skimmed It?

    "Just as" meaning equal to...I don't always agree. As you say, it depends.

    Like I said earlier, God does intervene, however, he saves our soul. It's just not the way you want. You want him to stop suffering in this life and blame him if he doesn't. How would he do this without you then blaming him for violating people's free will? You already are uncomfortable with the idea of not let babies choose to be Christians. Your not uncomfortable with the idea of people not being free to commit evil or cause suffering? But this is only human caused suffering....God has to then strip from the earth every disease, blight, natural disaster...every tool that could be used for evil like fire, knifes, guns, water?

    What God intended for good, man corrupted, but Gods answer is not a straightjacket or the removal of the rain, which floods and kills but causes the crops to grow, it was Jesus. He used our evil to being about salvation. Another example is the story of Joseph in Genesis near the end he says, "You intended to harm me, but God intended to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives." Taken as a single verse you might even be tempted to think it was Jesus who said it....

    As far as delayed justice goes, I've actually never heard that. It's why legally we do not have statute of limitations on certain crimes. Families routinely seek justice decades later. What is a delay in the eyes of God? He made Abraham wait 25 years before fulfilling he promise. Christians are still waiting for God to come again and establish a world without suffering, which you want.
     
  9. Brokenman123

    Brokenman123 Fapstronaut

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    It's not in the Bible but I heard it from others. And aren't Catholics usually not believers in sola scriptura?
    God can create people with free will but without the ability to hurt others and you can see this because heaven is like that. No I'm not uncomfortable with stripping people of free will if they're going to use it to harm others, we do this with prisoners who are convicted of crimes, so why can't God do it with people who He foreknew would abuse their free will?
     
  10. Max Fisher

    Max Fisher Fapstronaut

    So in a system that God created, and a work he did and a sacrifice he accepted, you believe it was insufficient and poorly designed? This doesn't surprise me that much based on many of your answers. I don't think answering this one question, assume I even could, is going to move the needle in this conversation all that much. Explain to me what God should have done instead...the gospel according to @Brokenman123.
     
  11. Max Fisher

    Max Fisher Fapstronaut

    Catholics believe in scripture just not the "sola" part. I'm perfectly ok with that answer, but your hints at Calvinist style predestination lead me to believe that you might not be. However, even though there are strong arguments for infant baptism in the bible, sacred tradition makes it indisputatable. Even to a vast number or Protestants, Lutherans being the prime example, infant baptism and it necessity for salvation is proclaimed.

    Heaven contains people in a completely different state then we are in now. As a spirit not tied to the flesh (the cause of a multitude of sins...nofap...cough...cough) as well as being regenerated in full. I believe that it's not really apples to apples right?

    How does this statement square with God preventing sin? How are you actually at fault if God made you, gave you a free will you misused and did nothing to stop you? Aren't you shifting the blame?
     
  12. Brokenman123

    Brokenman123 Fapstronaut

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    That's a strawman attack. I'm legit trying to figure out how three days of punishment is equal to an eternity of punishment, I'm just trying to understand that. I never said anything about a poor design or anything.
    I said it's more of an indirect sort of blame. I mean I chose my actions but IDK, I am blame directly for my own actions not God.
     
  13. Max Fisher

    Max Fisher Fapstronaut

    @Brokenman123, what is the hard part to understand? The three days or the eternity? I don't have an answer. What's eternity, an endless amount of days or one day that never ends? Is it enternal present or a calendar with no ending? Explain time to me then explain how after all that explaining God can't be outside it and do what he want to accomplish his will.
     
  14. Brokenman123

    Brokenman123 Fapstronaut

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    I'm trying to understand to suffering for three days equals to a human who is supposed to suffer for eternity. As far as I know three days and eternity are not the same thing. I don't know how to define eternity, maybe it's one day that never ends, IDK.
     
  15. Max Fisher

    Max Fisher Fapstronaut

    Im trying to understand how an answer to this question will increase your love of God or bring you more faith. There are many things about this world and God that remain a mystery. If the answer is that its not equal lets explore that...then Jesus did not adequately suffer for us. The claims he made and his disciples made were false. He was not the saviour. Find a different saviour or a different God. I don't see a way around it.
     
  16. Brokenman123

    Brokenman123 Fapstronaut

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    I just want to understand how Jesus suffered. I don't get why it's such a problem because I asked a question. I never said it wasn't equal... I just asked how you to explain to me how it was equal. I don't get why you're going of on this tangent about the disciples and find a different faith. I'm just trying to reconcile three days with eternity in my mind.
     
  17. Max Fisher

    Max Fisher Fapstronaut

    I guess I'm jumping the gun a bit, sorry. I'm not sure they can be reconciled. I don't know how they are equal logically. I cant comprehend eterity or bearing the sins of all humanity. What is the reasult of not knowing, that's my question and the purpose of my tangent?

    Try meditating on the suffering of Jesus and tell me what God reveals to you.

    In general sense avoid a Gnostic approach to faith. We dont need to know or explain everything to believe what we believe and God doesnt require this from us. I think that has been addressed more than once. Please ask as many questions as you want but ask them to God too. What has he told you since we started this thread? Anything?
     
  18. Brokenman123

    Brokenman123 Fapstronaut

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    I can't talk to God because I have a distorted view of Him now and I've disrespected Him and sinned against Him so I doubt He'd want to talk to someone who's doubting His existence.
     
  19. Max Fisher

    Max Fisher Fapstronaut

    You might be surprised. Peter denied Jesus three times and he still made time to chat with him.
     
  20. Brokenman123

    Brokenman123 Fapstronaut

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    I don't know about that but anyway thanks for answering my questions.
     
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