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Discussion in 'Off-topic Discussion' started by embodiment of luck, Feb 28, 2021.
Ok I guess a person in a wheelchair doesn't have legs because they don't function. Why are we talking about this? I don't do religious debates, they are incredibly boring.
God made the world and gave us freedom to do whatever we want, for that he gave us brain and everything.
I would like to answer this with line As you sow so you reap.
It's what we did, we humans created ammunition, still God gave us freedom.
Don't you think God has mercy on us???
Let's assume what if God does not allow suffering:
People will get lazy enough to work-hard in order to achieve something, this is logical.
They are going to develop a feeling like this "I don't have to do anything to achieve something".
Also, people are gonna expect recovery with watching P0rn and masturbation, neither this website would have existed nor your question.
Stay safe in the name of God. <3
According to theology, God allows suffering because of the fall of man. It starts with the story of Adam and Eve. They ate from the tree of the forbidden fruit and obeyed the devil, who was a talking snake in the Garden of Eden. God didn’t like this and punished Adam and Eve for disobedience.
It's basically this. This is the best explanation that we have been able to come up with.
Genesis essentially makes the claim that reality as such is "Good" and its creator infallible. With reality framed in this manner, if you end up being miserable, it is entirely your own damn fault. Now that is pretty harsh, but it is constructive to believe that you are responsible for your own fate. Since we are far too limited to find the objectively "correct" frame of reality, all that a frame has to offer, all of its value, comes from how constructive it can be.
When Adam and Eve get caught, they try to blame their reality. Adam basically says "Well the woman you made gave the fruit you made to me" and Eve is all like "Well the talking snake you made gave me the fruit that you made". These are perfectly rational excuses but God just isn't having it. Yahweh makes them pound sand out of paradise for pointing the finger and not owning their actions. That's how it works. You just have to deal with things the way they are, not wish for an alternate reality, that's your best option. You will (probably) end up in the best possible place if you do the best you possibly can given your current circumstances, as messed up as those circumstances may be. That's the best frame of reality.
An alternative frame that is popular today (as it has been forever) is that it is always someone else's fault that you're miserable. If someone is doing better than you, it's because they are oppressing you. Sure, that's a lot easier to swallow, but it also means that you are defining yourself as just a powerless victim of circumstance. You are stuck waiting for the "great revolution" to occur where those dirty parasites get what's coming to them. Maybe that day will never come, maybe it will come and it doesn't actually solve your problems. That's not very constructive, even if it does make you feel better about yourself.
Thats a terrible comparison taken out of context
The point is, if you make such serious statements, not just with bible but any other topics that exceeds to higher lenght.. you need to know how to backup your claims
If you think your belief is correct, but cant express well leave it to someone who shares your belief but can express a lot more better.
Im not debating you btw, just letting you know that some things are to be kept for yourself
Funny you mention that, recently I spoke with a guy who is not a Christian but is a huge fan of the Bible. He reads it frequently and gets a lot of wisdom from it, along with ways of seeing the world.
Much of the Bible is compiled from oral traditions that managed to survive for thousands of years. It is often suggested that just as "weak" traits (or perhaps better said, unsuitable traits for a given environment) are weeded out through generations, and helpful traits are preserved. Likewise, oral traditions tend to preserve the things that are most relevant and meaningful in the long term, because many of the unhelpful ideas are left behind. All of that to say that the Bible contains information that helped a small people group survive for thousands of years, through numerous wars, cultural degradation, and hostile takeovers. The fact that the written words in the Bible had the power to keep a community intact with a system of morals that were far ahead of their time when looking at the surrounding context demonstrates the utility of the Bible, whether or not you find the things it has to say about spiritual matters helpful.
An observation on this conversation: I love the fact that a bunch of people, on an online forum dedicated to helping each other to quit tugging their pee pees and watching naked women, still find the time to talk about questions of meaning, suffering, and the divine. I'm not being sarcastic, I think it's pretty cool, and I also think it's cool how even though some folks might be moderately annoyed with each other, no one is all-out flaming each other.
Excellent. So the bible contains nothing about diseases, what they are, how to treat them, nothing about electricity, or how to harness/untilise it, nothing about natural resources, where they are, what can be done with them, nothing about cosmology, nothing about health and nutrition, anatomy, geology, geography, engineering, etc etc etc...
But we DO have guidance on what bugs we can eat...
It has all of that and more! Is the sacred word of god!
Bible does contain some of the scientific stuff that are in co-relation to today's science. Obviously, it would be an ignorant thing to expect bible to answer your questions about electricity and its harness, more than ever its a book about faith not an engineering handbook, but it certainly does some things that do work according to today's science. And i will show you a few. Each section is hidden with spoilers for easier read.
You can see the explanation of the water circular flow in nature, older generations, for instance ancient greeks believed that rain would come from the 'underground oceans' which was kept all the way until 17th century
You brought up the hygiene, in fact ancient jews had the guides on the hygiene and diseases too!
For instance, the Moses law did imply that those who are sick of leprosy needed to be quarantined or isolated. Right around middle ages the doctors have began implying the same measures, and today too. Quote also describes what specific signs on body would be seen to determine if person is sick, the progress of infection and so on.
The quote is a bit longer
There was also a guide on what to do after one recovers from a disease, while precautions of self-distance is also brought up:
There is also a guide on what to do after pooping out and how to handle the waste;
These things are common sense to us now, obviously, but keep in mind that the people in middle ages had quite odd ways to dispose waste and how hygiene standards were different back then.
Even to this day we have people who believe that earth is flat, but this view was more prevalent in centuries behind us, thanks to Isaac Newton that got solved out of the way, however, bible did have implications about it already.
You can see that Isaiah referred to the earth as circle or spherical shape.
For years you had interests of what surrounds the planet and where does it belong to. For instance, Hindus conceived that earth had few foundations and that it was resting on four elephants and the elephants would rest on huge turtle and so on
Or we can take Aristotle as an example, he used to believe that earth is spherical, but he would deny that it would stay in an empty space not supported by anything, he explained it through planets being attached on transparent spheres.
What's interesting is that bible says that earth, is hanging upon "nothing"
Then again, bible is mainly book about one's faith its a religious book, but it does hold up to something you have already mentioned. Looking into bible to give you an answer on how to fix your houses' electricity is a rather stupid thing to do, its like you would take encyclopedia and look for answers in finances.
As for the bugs thing that you misinterpreted, on purpose, this was Leviticus law which was applied for ancient jews regarding to their situation back at the time, its not applied to modern times like now. You would of know that if you took time to research before jumping to conclusions.
As i can pretty much assume that next reply to this won't be any different than previous ones (if someone replies), i can pretty much say i am done. If someone is interested in genuine discussion, send a message we can talk. I don't know everything, but learning something new is always welcome
Again, my point is not to debate, but rather have a healthy discussion
The Bible is a compilation of anecdotal testimonies of how people saw Jesus or stories that occurred when Jesus was God or human, not a scientific textbook.
I was born into a catholic family, baptised, confirmed, catholic school from 4 to 16, fully fledged member my friend. And i have been looking at this my whole life, reading the bible, studying the bible, thinking about this stuff very deeply for a very long time, looking for something, anything upon which i could hang faith, and i still havent found anything and i find the arguments against it far more coherent and convincing.
It would be quite silly to look to religion or mythology to study scientific truths, it would be equally silly to read a calculus textbook to help guide you through difficult ethical choices. These are two radically different domains.
I just think - if an omnipotent, all knowing, all loving creator diety essentially wrote a book, a guide for life, it would contain some useful information, which i suppose, if you are looking for guidance on how to beat your slaves, how to murder your neighbour for taking trash out on the sabbath, how to sacrifice animals etc...then the bible is FULL of tricks and tips. I do not feel such information is useful - call me old fashioned.
The hand washing debate of Matthew 15 is interesting. In one utterance, Jesus could have shot medical understanding forward thousands of years by agreeing with the Pharisees that yeah, washing your hands before eating is a good idea. But no, he said dont bother - nothing that goes into a man can harm him. Jesus knew nothing about bacteria and germs because he was a bronze age Jewish peasant who knew less about our world than the average 10 year old does today.
Even in the Catholic tradition, God didn't write the Bible, man did.
They taught you in Catholic school that the Bible concludes with the Mosaic laws? That the Bible only consists of the first three books?
No, we generally stayed away from the OT, the teachers probably figured it wasnt the best way to get us onboard. We generally studied how Jesus was a really swell guy with special magic powers. I didnt believe it then and i certainly dont believe it now.
Understandable, not cool from my side to jump on the conclusions right away. You know, i have grew up in an orthodox household and let me be honest with you, my parents are clueless about it and i could not really learn much from them, i had shaken up belief but i decided to do some research on my own then, again i am still learning its not a linear procedure that's for sure. I was told that truth is always somewhere in the middle, so i take my time
By all means if we disagree on this topic because of different life courses and other things that have shaped our thoughts that's certainly not a bad or wrong thing. If anything else i know i haven't changed your opinion, nor im trying to, but i hope that i brought up at least something new and somewhat interesting to pay attention to. Im aware with how religions are throughout centuries and today, unfortunately, it seems that its always for an individual to find an answer and its not an easy task, whatever your may be i hope you're happy with it.
You're pretty hung up on "this" life when ultimately it is not as important as the next life according to Christian theology. In the Bible Jesus didn't come here to live, He came here to die. This is why he doesn't give two tosses about hygiene or dispensing scientific truths in order to create a more comfortable existence while on earth. Comforts in this life create earthly attachments...not a great quality to instill in your creation if detachment from earthly things is beneficial and necessary for salvation.
As a Christian, my opinion is that suffering is the only way
someone gets saved, or develops faith.
This is actually a blessing, to suffer in life.
When a lost person suffers, sometimes they make the choice to pray.
Then they can either get an answer, a miracle, understanding/wisdom, or saved.
Suffering creates that need to look for a spiritual answer.
How many times does a rich, successful, famous, attractive person have a NEED
to turn to God?
Can such a person still get saved? Always.
But its rare. They usually won't without a more "physical" need.
That is why God allows the devil to mess up our lives.
He can laugh about that because He can and will
fix us and/or give us faith,
but we have to "need" it, more than just
and esoteric or philosophical curiosity.
The Bible says that no man comes who is not drawn by God.
Tragedy, pain, poverty, suffering and sadness are those draws.
They are engineered by satan, but God allows them to happen
to see if those hard luck people are going to pray.