Why is meat hated so much? (Argument)

Discussion in 'Self Improvement' started by Deleted Account, Jan 16, 2019.

Which kind of diet do you follow?

  1. Vegan

    16.7%
  2. Vegetarian

    4.8%
  3. Omnivore

    69.0%
  4. Carnivore

    9.5%
  5. Misc.

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. Captain Rex reporting. I have on question to ask? Why do vegans/vegetarians hate on meat so much? Why do they consider meat to be as terrible as drugs? I just don't get it. I just don't get why meat is so demonized.

    To me, the belief that all meat is unhealthy is just a myth. Meat is actually some of the most nutritionally dense foods in the world. We were biologically designed by Mother Nature to eat both plants and animals. Our digestive system is built like that of a typical carnivore and we have canine teeth which is used for tearing into chunks of flesh.

    There are also some vital nutrients found in animal products that can't be found in any plant-based food. B12 for instance, can only be found in animal products and it's involved in the development of red blood cells, maintenance of nerves, and keeping the brain functioning properly. The only way to be able to obtain B12 from a vegan diet would have to be either consuming products fortified with the vitamin or taking supplements.

    Alsp, if you take a look at the Okinawans in Japan for example, they live in an isolated island chain off the coast of Japan. So it makes sense that they would eat fish as a primary staple of their diet. But guess what? They are known for living extremely healthy lifestyles so it's not uncommon for individuals to exceed over a hundred years of age. Crazy, isn't it?

    If you take a good look at us Americans, it's the exact opposite. Words can't even describe how sad our nation has become in terms of health and diet.

    Now, one reason why I think vegans/vegetarians demonize meat so much has to do with those vague studies which link eating meat with an increased cancer risk. The problem with those studies is that their only observational. They can't actually prove the cause. They can only prove that there's a relationship involved. It largely depends on what type of meat you eat and how you cook it.

    For example, there's not enough evidence which proves that processed meat such as sausage and bacon actually causes cancer. Like I mentioned above, there's only a correlation, it doesn't necessarily mean that's the cause. There may be other factors as well.

    However, it is wise to either ditch processed meats for good or simply just limit consumption simply due to their high saturated fat and sodium content.

    They also contain sodium nitrate and sodium nitrite which aren't necessarily bad on it's own since they are mostly found in vegetables like lettuce and cabbage for example. However, nitrites combined with amino acids can form nitrosamines which is a carcinogen that occurs during high heat cooking.

    Nitrosamines are pretty much the reason why red and processed meats are often blamed for causing cancer. The best way to minimize nitrosamine exposure without giving up meat entirely would have to be cooking at a much lower temperature. Besides, burnt meat is the worst!

    Anyways, on to the meat (pun intended) of the topic: animal rights. By far the biggest reason why people would start going vegan has to be because they just don't like eating animals or anything that comes from an animal. I can totally see that. I love animals too but I wouldn't go as far as to give up animal products entirely and go plant-based.

    Instead, I would much rather buy ethically sourced animal products from local, humane farms instead of factory farmed products. Because yes, I am aware of the horrors that go on inside those factories. I do think that the way those animals are treated is just beyond cruel and it's just very heartbreaking. So I would always try to opt for Free-Range, Grass Fed, Organic, Hormone, and Anti-biotic Free.

    I know that if I really do love animals, then I should go plant-based, right? Actually no, I don't really think it's for me. I'm a growing adolescent and I am also a bodybuilder so I'm going to need to eat meat since those are a complete source of protein.

    Yes, I do know that beans, lentils, and nuts are a source of protein but plant-based proteins aren't actually complete. Unlike animal proteins, plant-based proteins don't have all the essential amino acids the body needs, therefore they're not actually complete. But despite this, it's definitely doable on a vegan/vegetarian diet.

    And now, on to the last argument: environmental health. I have to admit, veganism totally wins on this one. Unlike crop farming, agriculture is a lot more burdening to the planet. Not only does livestock production take up a lot more land and resources, but the methane released from cows also makes it one of the biggest contributors to global warming, along with fossil fuels and transport.

    But that doesn't necessarily mean that everyone should go plant-based though, at least not in my opinion anyways. Even just cutting back on meat by going "meatless" once a week can make a big difference, especially when more and more people do it. It's not as helpful to the environment as going plant-based, but it's still a step in the right direction to say the least.

    By the way, in case you're wondering, I'm a flexitarian. It's another form of omnivorism but it mainly focuses on cutting back on meat while emphasizing on fruits, veggies, nuts, seeds, beans, legumes, and whole grains. A flexitarian would also typically abstain from meat at least once a week or more.

    The reason I follow this diet is because to me, it's way less strict compared to say, going vegan or fruitarian which I find to be overly strict. You can also still reap the benefits from eating lots of veggies while also being able to enjoy meat as well!

    Anyways, this is the end of my discussion. I tried my best to do lots of research in order to back up my opinion so that I have weight in the argument. Let me know what your thoughts are about eating meat. Anyways, Captain Rex, out.

    P. S. this post took a damn long time to make. I had to do lots of research on this topic to make sure that I'm hopefully right about the points I was making. This is also probably one of the longest posts that I've ever made next to my first success story post.
     
  2. You already know what I think since we've actually spoken about this before, but good for you for taking the time to look into a topic on your own and being willing to present your findings to other people. That needs to be done more.

    This being said, there's a few things in your post that stand out to me, which I'll get to when I have time. This will probably circle into a debate and my posts get long when that happens. :p
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 16, 2019
  3. Thanks for the positive feedback! I was actually expecting to get a lot of hate from the vegans and vegetarians here on NoFap. But thanks for letting me know that this was an opinion worth sharing! :)
     
  4. All my vegan friends are very healthy. Most of my meat eating friends are very healthy. I think it's more about aligning behaviors and diet with a over arching belief about our role in the environment. Most vegans I talk to eventually get drilled down to a discussion about exploitation and sustainability not health, but health gets more mainstream people interested.

    I eat meat by the way ;)
     
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  5. johndoe117

    johndoe117 Fapstronaut

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    First off wow Captain Rex thanks for the in detail and well thought out post. In my opinion NoFap will benefit from these discussions about all kind of real life issues.
    -----
    In my opinion, the anti meat agenda is part of a cohesive break down of masculinity in our culture, and is anti human. In the coming post I am going to do two things.
    -----
    First 1) Meat is masculine and our western culture is growing more and more anti masculinity.
    Second 2) Post modern society is anti humanism and meat is a casualty of the war on humanity.
    -----
    First, I will touch briefly the breakdown of masculinity in society. Ideals of classic masculinity are offensive in modern western culture, we live in a world being a man could make you "Toxic Male". I feel like this is mostly a result of the coddling of Children beginning in the mid 1980's. Read The Coddling of the American mind to see a great detail of this account. Young men especially need to experience strife and hardship to overcome, I think this is the fundamental message that made Dr. Jordan Peterson so attractive to young men in 2016, he was telling them they need to have a hard life, and that is exactly what we wanted to hear.

    Meat is viewed as something masculine. Men are classically hunters and in many cultures the kill is a point of male initiation for young men into manhood.

    Second our post modern society which now in part openly embraces communism and poverty of the human race, is anti human advancement. We hear this in the environmental debate where the value to be upheld is limiting human impact. In my opinion it is immoral to limit human capability and human influence, but where these ideas flourish, in the West, we're already taking our wealth for granted. The argument against land and water usage for meat is that it consumes such a larger amount per calorie. But you as a body builder know that the complex proteins from meat cannot be supplemented by even the highest protein produce. Mammals and humans need to synthesize protein, and humans through carnivoration have outsourced that synthesis. When meat is consumed, it is broken down into amino acids, which are made of massive molecular bonds, which are the literal energy of food. This allows our bodies to grow stronger, for us to have more nutrients per volume of food and to increase an individual humans ability to impact the world. Read Alex Epsteins The Moral case for Fossil Fuels to hear a great dissertation on how a culture advances with industrialization of food production.

    The fight against Porn is a battle for our masculinity, a masculine identity is embedded in millions of years of history and evolution. I believe the root cause of the Porn crisis, the War on Meat, the War on Energy, the War on Human Advancement, proliferation of communist ideals are all children of the same issue namely: That Masculinity must be destroyed at all costs. And that phrase would be cheered by many professors at Brown, or Harvard, or UCB.

    We have lost touch with manhood, and manhood is previously taught by men and father figures. We have lost touch with the idea of The Father, an archetype made out of all our experiences with father figures.

    I write these things so I can more clearly organize my thoughts, I'm just working on a battle of knowing.

    Keep fighting.
     
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  6. Ok, so this is the way I see it...

    1. Meat is heavily correlated with cancer, heart disease and diabetes. We might not fully understand the mechanism of this yet but at this point correlation is just too massive to ignore. It's a massive red flag at the very least. And there are plenty of studies done on reversing heart disease and diabetes with changing people's diet to whole foods plant based diet, from whole foods omnivorous diet. If animal products are not harmful then why would we become healthier when we stop eating them?

    2. There is nothing in animal products that human body needs that could not be found in abundance in plants. All the vitamins, minerals, fatty acids and even complete profile of amino acids can be found in plants. You saying that complete protein can not be acquired from plants is objectively false; plans have every single amino acid we need. Even all the taste, looks and texture of meat can be replicated through skillful cooking. So there is no reason even ate meat for taste purposes.

    Giving those two facts I simply come to the most rational conclusion - better be safe than sorry. There is no downside of playing it safe. At the worst case scenario it changes nothing, cos there is no need of animal foods for for perfect health, this is scientifically proven fact. But in best case scenario you gain a lot of health.

    It's like if somebody would say to you: "Let's have some gamble. I give you two choices. Choice A is I do not take any money away from you now or ever, but you have 40% chance that I will give large sum to you after 30 years. Choice B is I do not give any extra money to you now or later, but there is 40% chance that I will take large sum of money away from you after 30 years. Which one do you pick?"

    I think there is huge amounts of evidence that they are harmful, we just don't know how and why. Once we find out how and why then maybe we can find out a way how to ate meat safely, but for now I am not willing to risk my health. We might feel great short term but few decades down the line is when the damage stars to manifest. When I am 80 years old I rather regret not having some tasty burgers than be sick and regret knowing of this red flag but ignoring it, and now paying the price for it in pills, wandering if it could be different if I would have eaten differently.

    Besides, apart from just reading studies and tons of anecdotal stories from others, I have also felt the effects on myself. Started eating vegan and felt better than I ever have physically. Then inspired my mother to go vegan. Her blood markers improved so much the doctor even was surprised. She went off cholesterol pills completely, off diabetic meds completely and decreased her blood pressure meds by huge amount. Literary changed nothing but stopped animal products. This is all her still eating heavily processed junk, just replacing it for vegan junk. Seeing these kind of results first hand and feeling some of them on myself, nothing's gonna convince me that those correlations of meat with disease are flawed.

    But hey, it's free world. You can ate whatever you like. If you think risk is worth it or just don't care then whatever man. Wish you long and healthy life, and I hope I'm wrong.

    Cheers!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 18, 2019
  7. BravelyKegger

    BravelyKegger Fapstronaut

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    it all comes down to preference, i respect vegans as long as they respect me eating meat, even when i tell them i eat organic, free range, non chemicals animals, they still say that does not matter, God gave me permission to eat animals so i will, there is nothing wrong with a good balance between eating meat and greens.
     
  8. watch the documentary "What The Health" On Netflix - it will answer most of your questions ;)

    I also say I'm not a religious vegan I just do what my body tells me and intuition tells me - I live with meat eaters and have gone bad multiple times - My body craves meat as it craves porn and coffee and sex but through my contemplative lifestyle I find this way of eating is more helpful to my peace of mind and i feel good knowing no harm is being done to other beings while I'ma ble to nurish myself.

    I also am coming from a bodybuilding background. I have probate more steak than most of the people on this forum, so for me to sustain a healthy body that is strong and inspiring on a plat based diet is a new challenge and the positive mental benefits of it and reduced amount of sleep etc are very inspiring aspects for me to continue :)

    As i become used to this lifestyle, I really love the taste of food in a new way, the simplicity of eating only 2 meals and having a colourful meal made of mostly fruits and vegetables and grains feels really good to me.

    Lastly I learned to form my teacher Joel Goldsmith that many people try to be more spiritual by changing their diet, but its actually the other way around, when one raises in consciousness and awareness one naturally is inclined to eating in a certain way, if forced to give up meat before one is ready, it wont work very well, and it will be a dogma, but when one reaches a stage that feels called to it, I feel that is the way.

    In my experience, I became super inspired to this idea after my last silence retreat - I was meditating for 10+ hours per day and I noticed when I would eat certain foods I could feel it in my skin. Like cyanne pepper would literally come oozing out of my skin.

    So I felt like if a simple thing like pepper comes directly out of my body, do I really want to put a tortured animal in to my body?

    Aside from the torture animal idea, The effort and work required for my body to digest that food is much more than it is to digest a plant-based diet.

    Now you may say who cares? This is all about becoming a more conscious and efficient being.

    I noticed when I eat this way, I need less sleep and this gives me more time to meditate and read and study, so i can be more present in my life and it increases the quality of every moment of my life.

    Whereas I eat the food that is very heavy, I end up sleeping more, less meditation, more in my head and i'm more triggered by my addictions and aversions.

    Again i'm not against eating meat, i'm just FOR eating wisely and consciously and compassionately.

    :) Much love from canada
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2019
  9. Red Eagle

    Red Eagle Fapstronaut

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    It's very simple. Vegans don't hate meat, they hate the concept of Carnism. Carnism = The concept of eating meat for the sake of pleasure, tradition, convenience etc.. Meat consumption is one of the major problems in our world today and meat consumption globally is on the rise mainly due to china which can cause many problems, environmental destruction and global warming are two of them.
    Meat cannot be compared to drugs. Drugs damage people much more than meat does, at least in the short term. Meat is often equated to drugs because of some people's insistence to continue eating it despite plenty of evidence showing that meat consumption has to go down massively if we want to feed the human population effectively and prevent destruction to the environment.
    Also, the meat industry is one of the cruelest industries on the planet right now, killing animals in the billions for no logical reasin aside from selling it to people who say stuff like: "We've been doing it for ever", "We are carnivores", "It tastes good" or "I need my protein". All reasons that idiotic or can be easily disproven.

    Meat contains things like saturated fat, sulfur containing amino acids, cholesterol, heme-iron and trans-fatty acids. All which cause or support the development of chronic disease. Meat eating has a detrimental effect on longevity and especially quality of life in one's later years. The healthiest and longest lived people on the planet live or lived in the blue zones which are areas where people lived very heavily on plant based diets and ate meat and other animal products in very low quantities, if they ate them at all. The scientific consensus is very clear on that point. Eating meat should only be done at the very most in small quantities. Our canines are not necessarily designed for tearing into flesh. There are pure herbivores with canine teeth. Gorillas and Hippos for example have canine teeth even though they don't eat meat. It's probably an evolutionary adaptation for defending oneself or fight over territory. Humans canine teeth have actually gotten smaller during our evolutionary process.

    You're mostly correct. But there is one thing you're missing. Animals do not produce B12. The same goes for plants. B12 is special in that it is produced by bacteria. Those bacteria live in the intestines of some herbivores where they produce the vitamin so you can get it from meat. But those bacteria also live in fresh water or soil. So if you were to drink untreated water or eat crops directly from the field you are very likely going to get B12. Now in today's world we are obsessed with hygiene, which is good for the most part. But it kills of the naturally occuring bacteria which produce B12. So the only way of getting it is through Meat or fortified foods and supplements. NOw another thing that most people don't know about is that animals today don't live naturally anymore and don't get B12 anymore which is why animals are routinely supplemented with B12 in factory farms. So even if you eat meat, the B12 is very likely synthetic. Faulting vegans diets for getting B12 is kind of nonsensical. But what people get wrong is that B12 is not an animal vitamin and it is factually wrong to say that it only occurs in animals.

    They belong to the blue zones. But you're wrong. Fish only made up a small part of their diet. The traditional okinawan diet was mostly plant based with very little animal products. That's why they are so healthy. If the small amounts of fish aided their health or not is debatable.

    That's not true. There are multi varied analysis like the Adventist Health Study 2 and various other studies which clearly suggest that meat and other animal products are responsible for the development of chronic disease. This field has existed for over 50 years and the data is very clear. It's just that the money is not on the side of the truth and this information doesn't really go out to the public. It's basically like smoking in the first half of the 21th century. People doubted the detrimental health effects of smoking for decades until they finally accepted that it was carcinogenic.

    Then why does the WHO classify processed meat as a first class carcinogen? Do you think they don't know what they are talking about? The reason for this is nitrosamines which occur in processed meat products. They are also one of the reasons tobacco is carcinogenic
    https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0020456
    https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/01635580701684872
    https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.0040325
    https://www.nature.com/articles/bjc2011585
    https://academic.oup.com/jnci/article/98/15/1078/2521700

    I mean this stuff is not hard to find but people still doubt it. People want to hear good news about their bad habits. That's why this is not accepted in the general public. It takes decades for this type of data to get the recognition it deserves.

    You pretty much said it yourself. The carcinogenic effect is created by heat and the conversion from nitrites to nitrosamines. Those are acutally used to keep the redish colour of meat which people find more appetizing.

    Well that is a logical fallacy. How can you pay for the death of something you love. If you eat them and pay for their death you clearly don't love animals. Or you just don't take part in their suffering which makes it possible for you to continue eating meat. Would you keep eating meat if you had to kill those animals yourself? I'm really interested.

    Another fallacy. You cannot produce ethically sourced meat since killing in itself is an inhumane act which always requires a victim. Also gras fed animals especially cows are detrimental to the environment since they produce more CO2 than their factory farmed counterparts due to longer growth periods. So grass fed is not an option environmentally.

    Every plant and every animal we can eat has a complete amino acid profile. The differnce is just the distribution of amino acids which is basically the "quality" of protein. But since we eat many different foods and just don't follow mono diets the level of quality of a protein doesn't really matter. Rice and Beans for example has a high quality amino acid profile and potatoes alone have a better amino acid profile than any meat. It doesn't matter if you get your protein from animals or plants. What matters is that you have a possitive nitrogen balance which is easy to achieve. Most bodybuilders fail at eating enough calories which is the real challenge.

    Completely wrong. All plants, like mentioned above, contan all 9 essential amino acids. Check it out on chronometer. It's just that some plants have a lot of one amino acid and not much of another amino acid. But again, combining foods gets rid of that problem. Also there are a ton of vegan bodybuilders that prove that veganism and bodybuilding is very compatible.

    Nice to see that you're informed on this. Thumbs up for you.

    I hope you learned something and that you keep making smart decisions about your food. It's great that you don't eat too much meat. Maybe you will eventually get the drift and ditch meat for good. It's just gonna benefit you, the animals and the environment.
     
  10. Ra's Al Ghul

    Ra's Al Ghul Fapstronaut

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    Its part of the agenda to make men effeminate soyboys.
     
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  11. kropo82

    kropo82 Fapstronaut

    Most don't. For most vegetarians and vegans it is a personal decision. One could just as well ask why atheists hate Christians or why Christians hate atheists. Most don't. I think people turn to a plant based diet for one (or more) of four resons
    1. Health (e.g. heart disease, lactose intolerance, etc.)
    2. Environmental (the resources required to produce meat are huge in comparisson to plant based 'alternatives')
    3. Moral (it's wrong to kill sentinent beings)
    4. (Eek, I cannot remember what the fourth was going to be! I'll edit if it comes back to me.)
    (PS Saying you have to eat meat because you are a bodybuilder is an odd argument. You could stop being a bodybuilder. Everyone here shared a hobby, and then we stopped.)
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2019
  12. IGY

    IGY Fapstronaut
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    I would rather live several years less than forego eating meat. Having said that, sometimes I eat vegetarian versions of dishes because I enjoy the variety of taste and texture. But I would not want to be restricted to vegetarian cuisine tbh. ;)
     
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  13. Bretto

    Bretto Fapstronaut

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    It’s so hard to find truthful information on anything. You can search the whole web and find proof for both arguments because that’s just how the internet is. Anyone can say they are a professor and 99% of people won’t question it if it is in line with their own beliefs.

    What we can rely on more than anything is our own experience. Don’t eat meat for a couple of weeks or eat more steaks than you usually would and see how it effects your training. Then when you get the results remember them and please refrain from cramming them down other people’s throats like everyone does.

    Be an example of the decision you have made. People would be more inclined to ask about you’re diet choice if you are ripped and fit af compared to a fat slob with a skin condition.

    The world is suffering from an identity problem. “I’m a vegan”, “I’m a steak eating Aussie bloke”, “I identify as a new gender you have never heard of before” - it’s out of control. It’s just a constant fight for attention and starting to get more extreme. If you don’t label yourself you don’t have to limit yourself to the labels confines (other than natural labels like being a human and being a male). Implying that you’re not a real man unless you eat steaks is a PRIME example.
     
  14. Mattsfreedom

    Mattsfreedom Fapstronaut

    Some vegans will even go as far as not eating foods created by animals why? One example being honey.
     
  15. Ajar

    Ajar Fapstronaut
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    I definitely understand your point of view, but your science is a bit dated....
    Its time for us to move on from the food pyramid...

    Meat has definitely been linked to cancer multiple times. Animal protein above the 20% threshold actually activates cancer. It literally has nothing to do with how the meat is cooked. Nitrites, and Nitriles have almost nothing to do with cooking(1). Dr.Campbell in "Forks Over Knives" spent his whole life experimenting with Cancer and animal protein. Literally anything above 20% promoted cancer growth(1).

    If you look at "How Not To Die" by doctor Michael Greger. He again goes through a history timeline of how the meat industry, as well as almost every other industry in the US fucked you in the ass. I think it was "Forks Over Knives", or "In Defense of Plants"(PBS), they show that the AMERICAN KNOWLEDGE ABOUT DIET IS 100% PAID FOR. Even today the USDA is getting sued for its dietary recommendations.

    Initially the report which concluded that "meat" was the primary cause of inflammation in the system was changed, due to pressure from the meat organizations, that made the national health recommendation for the US said "consumption of healthy, and lean meats, lowered your risk of coronary heart disease". <- Utter Trash.

    The national heart association, national cancer association, national diabetic assocation all of these major associations still advertise the consumption of meat even though its almost been 40 years since we found out that the top 15 killers in America was brought on by Animal Protein.

    Its funny, the same people who make your chicken, beef, fish, milk, cheese, and eggs are the same people that are making dietary recommendations for the US. They've been sued on this multiple times. You want some proof? Read these articles thoroughly.

    (51)"For example, the Dietary Guidelines specify foods to eat more frequently (e.g., fruits and vegetables), but avoid identifying foods that people need to eat less often (e.g., meat and cheese)," the lawsuit claims. "Instead, the Dietary Guidelines use biochemical terms unfamiliar to the general public, calling for limiting 'cholesterol,' 'saturated fats,' and 'solid fats' without clearly explaining that: meat, dairy products, and eggs are the only sources of cholesterol in the diet, dairy products are the number-one source of saturated fat, and meat and dairy products deliver the majority of solid fats in the American diet."

    https://www.businessinsider.com/usda-sued-over-new-dietary-guidelines-2016-1
    https://www.ecowatch.com/meat-industry-wins-in-dietary-guidelines-for-americans-1882145198.html
    http://time.com/4130043/lobbying-politics-dietary-guidelines/

    (1)https://www.cancercouncil.com.au/21...rition-diet/fruit-vegetables/meat-and-cancer/
    (51)
     
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  16. KillCommunism

    KillCommunism Fapstronaut

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    I'll take my meat thank you very much.


     
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  17. Body building... meat.
    Wamt something really tasty... meat.
    Whats for dinner... meat.
    Vegans just think they are doing some sort of justice. Do not get me wrong, i do fast from meat for months sometimes. But as you said, we need that balance.
     
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  18. Retentionman

    Retentionman Fapstronaut

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    Meat and organs ftw
     
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  19. LEPAGE

    LEPAGE Fapstronaut

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    Meat is one of the reasons we aren't still swinging from trees. Herbivore animals are stupid. Cattle, sheep, deer, etc; they are all as dumb as a bag of hammers. Coincidentally, they taste great! Eat 'em up I say. Raise barns and barns full of 'em, kill 'em, cut 'em up, cook 'em and eat 'em. Make mine a pork chop.
     
  20. LEPAGE

    LEPAGE Fapstronaut

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    Say no to soy!
     
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