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Why Men Objectify Women

Discussion in 'Off-topic Discussion' started by Limeaid, May 17, 2015.

  1. Moxie

    Moxie Fapstronaut

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    Yes. History tells us societies have long idolized men with extreme ambition, drive for worldly prestige, victory, success, with scant regard to what we would think of as ethical norms. The ancient Sumerian myth of Gilgamesh tells of a bull-like man with no rival who slept with any young women he wanted to:

    "In Uruk the Sheepfold he would walk about,
    Show himself superior, his head held high like a wild bull.
    He had no rival, at his pukku
    His weapons would rise up, his comrades have to rise up.
    The young men of Uruk became dejected in their private quarters.
    Gilgamesh would not leave any son alone for his father.
    Day and night his behavior was overbearing. . . .
    He is the shepherd of Uruk the Sheepfold,
    Powerful, superb, knowledgeable, and expert,
    Gilgamesh would not leave young girls alone,
    The daughters of warriors, the brides of young men.

    The same Sumerians worshiped the moon god Nanna-Sin, and goddess of love Ishtar. Both male and female prostitutes from the temple priesthood were used in sexually charged ceremonies. The moon temple had female priests, who would stimulate a young male volunteer with titilating dances, caresses, and coitus. In Ishtar's temple, male priests would perform a similar ceremony with a young female playing a role as sacrificial victim. Sumerians were not above human sacrifice in the name of agricultural fertility and procreation. After the ceremony the "scapegoat" would sometimes be killed. The Sumerians believed that like the moon cycles, human beings returned to live many lives, which is why they were disposable.

    The ancient Jews sacrificed animals to receive God's forgiveness, instead of humans because they believed in the dignity of the individual human soul. They believe in one birth, life, and death.

    Christians believe Jesus was the one, ultimate sacrifice for all of humanity's sins, which is why we receive holy communion every Sunday, instead of sacrificing animals.

    Blood sacrifice is historically ingrained in our human cultural DNA. It makes sense that we have a built in ceremonial sacrifice setting in our daily routines. The Jews, however, were the first people to believe in the dignity of the individual soul, and the personal spiritual journey of the individual. They are the ones who institutionalized marriage of one man and one woman, and fidelity between the couple, and the metaphysical consequences of disobedience.
     
  2. DannyCool

    DannyCool Fapstronaut

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    There seems to be a cycle of anger and desire. That is what Mumchance is saying me thinks. If you reduce anger desire is easier to break. Even the most rich people in the world cannot satisfy their desire. You are basically trying to find something that is not there. The alchemist is a good book about this. Finding gold at the end of a rainbow. If you are angry you keep using the anger to find that happiness that is not true. The women is trapped and the man is controlling. I have been there myself.
     
    HippyMinstrel likes this.
  3. Immor

    Immor Fapstronaut

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    What you call smartassery, I call logic and reading comprehension.
    It is silly to say women deserve more respect than men. But I wouldn't be surprised if many people posting in here consciously or subconsciously share that belief.
     
  4. DannyCool

    DannyCool Fapstronaut

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    I like this point. I wrote above the women is trapped but also the man is trapped when he is objectifying. When a women is objectifying me then I have to stand on my own two feet and say I am better than that I am as good as them I don't need to react to their demands. Even if they have a high position or they know a lot I am still as good as them. :cool:
     
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  5. Moxie

    Moxie Fapstronaut

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    I think all very pretty young women ages 18-29 are self aware of their beauty, they do all they can to highlight their feminine attributes. They are arrogant and superior to men ofcourse, as if they were appointed by nature to be the judge of men's character. The young women I know are very aware that they are admired for their beauty by many. What is lovelier than a beautiful young woman? They have all the tools necessary to reject an unwanted advance from a man. Their estrogen levels make them highly detail oriented and sexually cautious, and is women's responsibility to filter through men and select the strongest candidate for reproduction. Men's testosterone makes us more outgoing, assertive, and it is our responsibility to approach. Some men are more socially intelligent than others, and know when their romantic interest is reciprocated and when it is not. Porn and lust certainly distort and dull men's social intuition.
    I don't think "women" are objectified as much as girls and very young women. Older women gain their self esteem through caring for their husbands, families, and advancing in their career. Men generally do not lust or obsess over women when they are past their bright, lovely 20s. Feminine beauty is at its best and most lovely in youth, and men have every right to admire their youthful, transient, feminine beauty, as long as they are ethical, and follow their intuition whether their feelings are reciprocated. Its the same with male masculinity. The world commercializes masculinity through sports, and militarism. Men slave away to become stronger and more athletic and masculine to be more valuable to society, and women highlight their feminine sexuality with tight clothes, exposed breasts, short skirts, perfume, manicured nails, expensive hair cuts, and Brazilian waxes, to be more desirable to society. I do not see either case as evil, only human.
     
    Bale likes this.
  6. The porn industry diffuses sexual rivalry between males because it offers women to them available at any time, anywhere. However it increases sexual desire and flavors the user's worldview with sex. The user goes into the real world sees a woman he wants sexually, cannot have her because he is socially awkward and his self esteem is shot by self-objectification. The woman becomes attainable, he burns in lust for her. He perceives all these problems in himself and blames them on the woman. He then goes online to see women sexually violated and he achieves peace through orgasm, until his desires build up again.

    What I am saying is that in the past men would fight over women, have duels, raid towns of villages for their women-folk, etc. Some of this still happens (the less extreme versions of course) but today has largely been replaced by pornography and a victimization process in which porn actresses act as scapegoats and receive all the violence of male frustration upon their bodies. So in someways porn does create peace, a peace which has to be renewed frequently through a ritualistic PMO-veneration of the sacrificial victims. But it is not a peace I want. A peace created by the sacrifice of even just one person is not a peace that I want.
     
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  7. Bale

    Bale Fapstronaut

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    Porn does not have to be the only ritualistic way to evacuate male violence. Prostitution and brothels existed long before porn. blindvulture gave examples of other rituals. All these rituals are also a form of control: people's basic needs must be filled in order for peace to exist. Without food, there is starvation, which leads to chaos. Without money, there is misery, which leads to chaos. Without sex, there is violence, which leads to chaos.

    For centuries, religious values and more specifically montheisms have promoted the opposite idea: because people always crave for more, a society that systematically fills its citizens' basic needs (with unlimited food, unlimited money and unlimited sex) is unsustainable, therefore people were encouraged to seek moderation, humility and chastity. This is only my personal interpretation of where modern social norms come from but I think it makes sense.

    The thing is that today these barriers created centuries ago are disappearing in the name of individual freedom. Men lose sight of the fact that by massively succumbing to porn, masturbation or prostitution, the continuity of our society is threatened. There are still people who defend and live by moderation principles, but how long are they going to last?
     
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  8. Bale

    Bale Fapstronaut

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    That is not what I was implying. On the contrary, pornography is a way of replacing the male basic need for sex. Therefore it is an instrument of peace and stability, as @mumchance pointed out. Men would turn to porn in their quest for the sex they cannot have, which justifies its existence (the variety of what you can find in porn is much broader now). Should we do like the first monotheisms and bring back the values of moderation? Or would it better to encourage the massive creation and consumption of sexual content? Because this is exactly what is happening right now.
     
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  9. As per your post above, thank you for reminding me of prostitution, brothels, harems and polygamy. Men have always found a way to scapegoat women and bring their sexual frustrations against them. What I am talking about it nothing new, for sure. But pornography has vastly changed it because now the substitute is free and the victims are employed by a global industry that has shaped sexualities worldwide. The victimization process never had that kind of reach or power before.

    Online pornography has crossed a boundary we should have never crossed, like nuclear weapons, mechanized genocide, and eugenics. It is a dangerous technology that we need to stuff back into Pandora's box. Any culture effected by it will be a hell for women. For the sake of women, for the sake of humanity we cannot support the massive creation and consumption of sexual content. Those monotheisms you mentioned demand that. Every religion that I know of demands that. Secular ethics and humanism demands that.

    Moderation I think will help. But above that I think we simply need to reconnect. We need to re-communalize. Strengthen our communities. Make family and people important again. People don't go looking for porn if they are emotionally healthy and they won't be emotionally healthy until they have been socialized into a community that respects both masculine and feminine values.
     
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  10. Limeaid

    Limeaid Guest

    Men are most definitely emasculated in today's society but men and women are causing it. I can't speak for anyone else's marriage but I treated my husband like a child and he gladly acted like one. We both worked full time but I was expected to do everything else around the house while he played video games or invested time into his hobbies. Men's roles haven't changed but women's roles have. Women are stressed out from doing "men's work" and "women's work" so no wonder they are angry and resentful and have no interest in sex with their spouses.

    When my husband stopped PMO and video games it was like night and day. He started becoming more of a man. He started striving for things, taking care of our finances, making long terms goals for our family. He started making enough that I could stay home with our children (that was my choice, although I also run my own business part time). We started having sex more because he was no longer sexually depleted from wasting his sexual energy on "others" and that sex made him feel even more like a man. I was able to step into my own femininity and let go of being in control of everything because he is the leader now. I can trust him, I know he has my back and I have his. Before it was very much like having a child to take care of and it was exhausting.

    Family breakdown is very real but both men and women are contributing to it. If my husband had not given up PMO and video games, I would still be the nagging wife taking care of her "man child" and we would be in a very unhappy marriage which would have likely ended in divorce.
     
  11. Oh God, this was me and my wife. No wonder she wanted to end it. It must have been so tiring taking care of me, having to be the leader and everything. Still working on becoming a man and not a man-child.
     
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  12. Limeaid

    Limeaid Guest

    There is a lot of philosophical arguments in here about what porn is and I'm not sure I agree with them. Porn is simply an accompaniment to masturbation. The violence we see in porn is not the true internal desires of men but a twisted way to get more dopamine into the brain through "shock and awe". Kind of like the rush you get when you see a car accident. Dr. Gail Dines says that this "shock and awe" is supposed to mimic the thrill of intimacy which porn cannot simulate. I doubt any man here went immediately into hard core violent porn on his first try. I don't think men want to see women suffer in porn, they don't even see them as women so how can you inflict suffering onto an object. This is why rationalization comes so easily. She got paid, it's her choice, she likes it, not my problem, i need release etc.

    Porn in my opinion is simply a side show to the main act; masturbation. Men feel a driving need to masturbate and our current culture says "do it with porn".
     
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  13. DannyCool

    DannyCool Fapstronaut

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    This is really helpful. My life through masturbation, selfish fantasies and porn was to get this dominance dopamine feeling which is really just a power craving. What I was looking for was just not there. It was pleasure for me I was seeking. However by joining this site I am aiming to free myself of that and actually come in touch with another person or women. This is reality. This is real and this is considering others not objectification.

    To objectify there needs to be:
    1. subject - man
    2. object - women
    3. action - pleasure

    This is not love.

    However if now I do not seek pleasure for me how does that leave the situation?
     
  14. DannyCool

    DannyCool Fapstronaut

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    love this cause it makes sense to me
     
  15. DannyCool

    DannyCool Fapstronaut

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    This is so true. What is the opposite of this?
     
  16. Limeaid

    Limeaid Guest

    I think love and connection is about seeking pleasure for another and then this in turn will bring you pleasure. Seeking pleasure only for yourself is selfish and will rob you of connection and intimacy.
     
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  17. beauty

    beauty Fapstronaut

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    @Limeaid

    Another reason as to why men become so entrapped within pornography is that a male's sex-drive is thought to be overlapped with aggression and dominance. The porn industry takes advantage of that evolutionary adaptation, and exploits it. In contrast to a male's sex-drive, it is thought that a woman's sex-drive is overlapped with love and nurturance, why many women can testify to watching soft-core porn every once in a while. Just a thought.
     
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  18. Selfdiscovery

    Selfdiscovery Fapstronaut

    This is an interesting thread.I thought about this a lot during my school days.Why this girl is showing herself naked in this ,why that boy is doing underwear ads on magazines?

    I think men objectify women because women give men a chance to objectify them and vice-versa.Its simple and under stable.One cannot clap by single hands,a clap action needs both hands.This works well for this too.

    I strongly believe that if a girl/woman don't give a single chance/sign to boy/man to step out of his limits then there is no chance at all to objectify them.This applies for man also.I have seen and experienced this over the years.Be it any part of this planet Earth its damn true.

    A woman indulges with a man, as far as everything goes well they don't complain and as soon as situation becomes uncontrollable they start complaining.This applies to men also in reverse way.So fact is they too wanted that indulgence right?


    Further i'm not totally satisfied with the above comment by @ Beauty that:man's sex drive is overlapped with aggression and dominance.(i'm not favouring man here for sure,i have a great respect for women and i mean it).

    Of course,men are physically more powerful than women.But this must not be seen as in sexual context.Why we believe this as true coz someone has changed our perception towards all of this.For instance, when i watched porn i thought large penis,huge boobs,that vagina,licking,sucking,anal this that and a lot to mention here is what exactly is required during sex.And i feel very very ashamed to think so now that i thought that way sometime back why ??
    because someones has changed my perception about all this-Porn has destroyed my thinking about all.On the same line media has damaged human society to a large extent.The main motto of media was to spread awareness,information,entertainment but over the years they only has promoted sex and that too in inhuman way.You see this in movies,magazines,some newspapers,ads,Tv shows,movies,internet...where ever you run u'll find it.

    Why it happened?because they took the advantage of very basic fact that-a man is sexually aroused by visuals and a woman is sexually aroused by expressions.This is proven.If there is no one to objectify themselves then how one can objectify anyone?if a girl/women don't do skin show then how a man can objectify her i don't understand that.no way!In same way if being a man i don't act/behave/pretend/show her as an object to myself then how can a woman objectify me?we must understand how things work and if we know the root cause then only we can remove that one.Other wise no ways just we'll get trapped in this further.


    Its all about the law of demand and supply.If there is no supply how can one fulfill that?If there is no demand then is there any chance of supply?A big NO fure sure!Its like transmitting a signal,if there is no receiver then there is no meaning of that signal and same when there is no transmitter then there is no question of receiver there right?When a signal is transmitted and if there is a receiver to receive that then only things propagate.And if there is any mismatch in between noise is produced.In same way a girl/woman gives signal to objectify them and boy/man receive that signal and then only objectification is fulfilled and vice-versa.And if any mismatch occurs then we hear the cases about objectification,rapes,crimes etc.

    I strongly believe that if a woman has integrity in herself and if she don't pretend herself as an object then there is no man on this planet that can objectify her anyhow.This applies to man also.Its truth and some truths are hard to sink in our heads because we pretend to believe what we see/hear rather than going into roots of problems.


    Its our mutual responsibility as humans not to give anyone chance to objectify us.
     
  19. monkotto

    monkotto Fapstronaut

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    most men are animals (me included).
    we pretend that we are humans, sadly the instincts are too strong. :cool:

    yes, some times truth hurts.

    there are also women with a very high sex drive.

    edit:
    i objectify women because of beauty - it is somehow like a perfect painting.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2015
  20. Very well put
     

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