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A group for members of all religions, or no religion at all, to talk about religion
Wow it sounds deep. Thanks.
When We Fell - David Bazan
With the threat of hell hanging over my head like a halo
I was made to believe in a couple of beautiful truths
That eventually had the effect of completely unraveling
The powerful curse put on me by you
When you set the table
And when you chose the scale
Did you write a riddle
That you knew they would fail?
Did you make them tremble
So they would tell the tale?
Did you push us when when we fell?
If my mother cries when I tell her what I have discovered
Then I hope she remembers she taught me to follow my heart
And if you bully her like you've done me with fear of damnation
Then I hope she can see you for what you are
What am I afraid of?
Whom did I betray?
In what medieval kingdom
Does justice work this way?
If you knew what would happen
And made us just the same
Then you, my lord, can take the blame
In my humble opinion this situation creates three thoughts...
Maybe God doesn't exist... We fabricated him (all religions)
Maybe we misunderstood what God is and does (if you consider him to be real)
Maybe how God works can't be understood by mere humans (like a person who doesn't know higher mathematics can't understand it's applications) and you need some special knowledge to better understand it.
I believe in God and I'm a practicing and devote Roman Catholic, but these questions are important even if there aren't good answers.
Well I keep asking for God to erase me from existence and yet I'm still here...
Maybe he's punishing you by making you stick around. Maybe he's punishing us by making you stick around.
I feel like you're making something simple into something complicated. I could go back and forth with you but I feel like it would be never ending. I truly do wish you luck in finding the answers you're looking for but I have a feeling you're not gonna be satisfied with any answer you are given.
Peace be unto you and good luck.
It is complicated. You can't tell me that I don't have good points. But whatever, my points still stand.
God did not know that Satan would cause so many problems. God left it up to him; it was Satan's choice whether he wanted to cause so many problems or not. Adam and Eve knew that it would be wrong to disobey God; they knew that God was greater than Satan because they knew that God created the world. Why does this imply that it would be wrong to disobey God? Satan was trying to convince them that if they ate the fruit, they would be greater than God. Yet they knew that they would not be God, so it must be a lie.
Well then God is not omniscient.
WRONG. God knows that Satan can decide whether or not he would rebel, and he knows exactly what would happen in either case, but which path is taken is something that God let Satan himself decide (before he became Satan of course). So he is still omniscient, since he knows exactly what would happen in either case.
You literally said above that God didn't know that Satan would cause so many issues. If didn't know that then He's not omniscient.
God did not know that Satan would cause so many issues, because it could've also been otherwise. Another possible future would've been that Satan didn't ever become Satan and remained holy. This was his choice; but God nonetheless knew that it was a possibility. God knows all possible futures based on peoples choices; this is what makes him omniscient.
Why would God create some people foreknowing that they would hate their existence?
God knows that they might hate their existence, but this choice is up to them. However, if they defeat the urge to hate their existence, how much treasure would they have accumulated in Heaven!
Then, why would God put some people into suffering?
Because if they defeat the suffering, and do not grumble or complain, they will have reward in heaven.
"Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven." Matthew 5:10-12a
Does this answer the question?
No. I don't get why God would create someone who doesn't want to exist. I don't get what's the problem with creating people who would want to exist. All God has to do is create people in the world whom He foreknows would want to existence, simple.
God doesn't decide whether they want to exist or not. However, if they choose to want to exist rather than hate their existence, then they have defeated Satan, and will end up higher in Heaven. It is a test.
Have you ever played a video game where you got all the cheat codes and just walked through the entire level. Did you ever think to yourself how boring that was. I like to think God created the problems to make life interesting. It's like watching a perfect movie, no one dies, the protagonist doesn't encounter any problems. I mean, that would be boring wouldn't it.
Again it's either God is all good and doesn't create problems or He does. Which is it? Also as I keep saying, I don't want to experience any suffering and I hate seeing others suffer and that's why I wish I never existed.
Please, you have to stop using false dichotomies. God can't by pushed into one bin or the other. That's partially why this conversation is frustrating. As many people, Christian and non, have pointed out God can be many things to many different degrees. It's hard to even fathom what "all good" even is. If death is suffering and death fuels life, who's to say suffering isn't needed? If God could craft life without death then whose to say it is all good lacking the perspective of suffering required to make that judgement? Is a zebra black with white stripes etc?....How do would you objectively test if reality is all good anyways? It's too simple to just say "there would be no ----" because we don't have the time stone to see every possible change that factor would have in reality. Maybe his mercy and his will is that we endure suffering in this life and thank him for it. He is the ultimate judge so even if you could definitively prove he was immoral you would have to be greater then him in power for it to really matter right? Or maybe the satisfaction would be going to hell with your head high knowing you really were a better person all along....
Or the conclusion could be he doesn't exist and the bible doesn't matter....or like an infinite number of variations combining forever and ever amen.