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Woman hating incel

Discussion in 'Off-topic Discussion' started by Jrmz94, May 12, 2022.

  1. Jrmz94

    Jrmz94 Fapstronaut

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    what are your thoughts? This guy makes videos of him harrassing woman in public and then pepper spray them when they defend themselves.... I understand men's frustration with women but this guy clearly has some mental issues. I feel like he can be a potential mass shooter...
     
  2. gorl

    gorl Fapstronaut

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    I can understand why some men get to this place, but I have ZERO sympathy for them. He needs treatment stat I agree. Seems dangerous. I hope the system will catch him before it is too late.
     
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  3. smh_fam

    smh_fam Fapstronaut

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    People who are seriously mentally ill (under specific circumstances) can act out like this.

    If you do a search for "gangstalking" you will see thousands of videos uploaded by paranoid schizophrenics who record themselves as they go up to random individuals on the street, scream at them, cuss them out and accuse them of being CIA agents / space aliens / demons who are messing with them.

    As someone becomes trapped in their own mind, everything (and everyone) on the outside becomes more and more difficult to comprehend. The more incomprehensible the outside becomes, the more terrifying it becomes. Eventually that fear turns into hatred.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2022
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  4. TakingTheSteps

    TakingTheSteps Fapstronaut

    Treatment? Sounds like he needs prison. He's assaulting people.

    Do you actually know that they are paranoid schizophrenics? I've know two schizophrenic people in my life, both very kind and passive, love individuals. People with mental illnesses aren't monsters. And not all monsters are mentally ill. I know you didn't say "all," but you're making some assumptions that are kind of damaging to people with mental illnesses who get treated like they are dangerous criminals when they have never done anything remotely criminal or dangerous in their lives.
     
  5. smh_fam

    smh_fam Fapstronaut

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    Never said they were.

    But if they refuse treatment and get carried away by their delusions, they can be. I modified my post to clarify my position.
     
  6. gorl

    gorl Fapstronaut

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    lol that's basically what i mean. psych ward
     
  7. FocusIsLove

    FocusIsLove Fapstronaut

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    This guy needs help. I see things like this and I feel like our society handles it all wrong. We want to sweep him off to jail and call it a day, but truth is he is a whole individual deserving respect despite his awful actions. He should be taken off the streets, but if nothing is done to help him learn how to be a happy healthy individual capable of taking care of himself first, and then able to go beyond that and participate in society in a helpful manner, then he going to come out resentful, angery, and far more often than not with a deep seated desire to do more of what put him in the locker in the first place.
     
  8. TakingTheSteps

    TakingTheSteps Fapstronaut

    On the one hand, I agree that grace and mercy are beautiful things. But on the other hand, I can't help but wonder what more this guy would have to do for people to condemn him instead of having pity for him and acting like he's some kind of victim who needs protection...

    According to the original post, he is harassing women and then pepper spraying them for defending themselves. He's literally out there regularly assaulting an entire gender of human beings because he hates them. That's disgusting. I'm a little confused about why he's getting so much pity and understanding and kind words, and very little acknowledgement of just how horrificly disgusting his actions are.

    Nobody forced him to decide to hate an entire group of people so much that he decides to go out and physically assault them. He isn't the victim here. The people he's assaulting are the victims. It's pretty freaking easy to not go out and assault people, so I don't understand this kind of soft response to such a horrific thing.

    Sorry to pick on you with your comment, because this isn't JUST directed at you. It's just a little disappointing to see so many people not responding to this as harshly as they should.
     
  9. FocusIsLove

    FocusIsLove Fapstronaut

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    No offense taken. I know my stance is a bit out there in some regards. I am not really aware of many others who show any compassionate sentiments towards people of this ilk. I know of literally one psychologist who studied the incel phenomenon and wrote a book about it. I don't know his name, just that he was interviewed by Jordan Peterson on his podcast.

    I agree with you that he needs to be stopped, he needs to be quarantined in such a way the he does not have the opportunity to do what he is doing to hurt women again. That is vital and the highest priority. I just mean that as messed up as what he is doing, and it is incredibly messed up, one has to wonder a) what has brought him to a place where he believes that what he is doing is right, or at least feels an emotion strong enough to do it, and b) what exactly is he going through in this very moment? that kind of anger and resentment and feeling of ostracization are a hell of their own.

    None of that is to say that the guy is good, or that we need to stand up for the incel's philosophy. Far from it. That part is something that needs to be engaged with, discussed, with them included. What I am for is remembering to respect them as people, people in bad situation, and if possible have some avenues made that help people in that place come back to a healthy and functional place. That would be best for all.

    It's a common sentiment, but it's true. The system right now is messed up, and I think something else much much better could be enacted that didn't leave these people, and by that I mean those who go to prison for most reasons, left to stew and rot until they come back out. Recidivism is a haunting phenomenon. We put people in prison, and maybe they are off the streets for a while, but you have made it incredibly likely that they are going to come out, ready to do what they just did, and more often than not, do it worse.
     
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  10. TakingTheSteps

    TakingTheSteps Fapstronaut

    At what point can't we say that someone kind of deserves the hell they have brought upon themselves, when they assault people simply for being born female?
     
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  11. FocusIsLove

    FocusIsLove Fapstronaut

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    I agree with you that he should be punished, he needs to be taken away where he can't do any more harm. My concern with someone like him is that he'll come back out after stewing in a prison system that doesn't do much at all to get people ready to function outside. Recidivism rates(repeating crime after release) in the usa range from 25% all the way 65%. California, his state, doesn't seem to release that data to the public

    When I say help, I don't mean that he or his ilk should be given a be given a silver spoon and not have to work. I mean, at some level, when our society finds people like these, some amount of mental help and job training should be given while they are in prison or other quarantine, so that by the time they get out, and in a case like this it'll likely only be 5 to 10 years, they don't do something worse, and go back to the can.

    Past that, Incels in general I think need some online resources that give them a counter example to their resentful ideas about the world that is only making their lives worse.

    What of you? Do you think that prison is enough?
     
  12. TakingTheSteps

    TakingTheSteps Fapstronaut

    I mostly agree with the rest of what you said, but I think this is a very silly statement. Why on earth do we need to cater to incels and give them "resources"? They already have resources... the same ones all of the rest of us, who aren't sexist hateful people, have. They have the exact same resources as everyone else, so I see absolutely no need for the rest of us, who aren't being hateful and sexist, need to cater to them and try to help them change their views. That just seems unfair and unreasonable to me.

    Listen, I've been talking for years and years about how messed up the prison system is, how it doesn't work, the same stats and rates you are talking about, basically the exact same arguement you are making. But I guess I've just changed my view a bit. Because I think sometimes it is actually sort of unjust to pity someone for getting the deserved consequence of their horrible actions. And sure, we want people to come out of prison and actually be changed, but the thing is, that's kind of a pipe dream for a lot of situations. I think the point of prison is punishment. Consequences. If prison is made better, with rehabilitation and therapy, etc, then what's the consequence? We're just going to take men who assault women because they're sexist and full of hate, and send them to some retreat where they can get rehabilitation? How is that justice for the women he assaulted? That doesn't seem like a fair consequence.

    I completely understand everything you are saying, because it's seriously the exact same things I used to say. I guess I've just changed my opinion on this subject. This guy already has the same opportunity as the rest of us to go get therapy to help him... and instead, he's chosen to revel in his hatred and assault women because of it. So I don't see why we should give him special hand-holding and walk him into the therapists office. He is capable of change and of doing the right thing, and he's choosing this instead.

    I think I just have a bit of an issue with not fully acknowledging the choices he already has, and the fact that he should be held responsible for choosing hate and violence. The rest of us go through every day normal life and regularly choose to NOT be violent towards others. Some people even choose to go to therapy if they feel they have a hard time resisting those violent urges. This guy could have chosen that too, but he didn't. So why do my tax dollars need to pay for him to get the therapy that he could have paid for himself, when he instead chose to assault people? That doesn't seen fair to me, when people all over the country are paying for their own therapy and not assaulting people.
     
  13. Upwards2020

    Upwards2020 Fapstronaut

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    Yep total fucking odd ball people like this irritate me. He's very likely mentally unstable . But if you actively go out targeting women you are a piece of human filth
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2022
  14. FocusIsLove

    FocusIsLove Fapstronaut

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    Yes, but there is a very different effect to being put in a library, and someone writing a letter to you. I am a follower of the nonprofit, FightTheNewDrug.org[FTND] which deals with the same issue of NoFap, porn addiction. I am not sure if you are familiar with them, but one of they things that I've heard from speakers on their podcast is how they did not even know there was any harms to pornography, or the way that it portrayed women had any effect on them, or that there were men who have found a way out of that lifestyle. When they found FTND, it gave them information they've never been exposed to, as well as a clear example of people who saw the issue that they are dealing with, didn't judge them for having that issue, while also not minimizing the harm of the problem, and finally leading to some resources that might help someone deal with their issues.

    The incels are only a growing phenomenon. They, like you have said, have the same resources, but it is clear that they don't know how to use them in a way that leads them to a good life. I think a good start to this very real problem would be to simply try to give them a counter narrative that is directly addressed to them and includes them in the conversation. It would be very unlikely to help a great number, but I have little doubt that for those that are stuck there and don't want to be, it would help them.

    Well I am glad that you understand the issue. I was in part trying to spread awareness, not everyone knows. I also can see where you are coming from, and I think it's only natural for us as feeling humans to have a level of disgust towards someone who would, especially with no reason other than their own hatred, assault innocent women. I just think about it about it broadly, wondering what of the other end.

    The consequence and the justice is for the man to be removed from the rest of scoiety for a number of years. And like I have said, from what I see in this case, he'll likely only get 5-10 years on the books. From what I've seen of my family who've gone into prison, he may only be behind bars for 3 and put out on parole. I'm sure you're aware, but because of the tax dollars behind every prisoner and the limited amount of space compared to demand, prisons are incentivized to be as loose as they can with letting people out. I'm not going to argue that that it's just, but that is the realistic consequence. That is the justice that we have today.

    I mostly bring this up on grounds that there are other countries that have done prison better than the US. A great example is Norway. Their prisons are out in the middle of nowhere, their communication is limited, they can't engage with the outside or earn their living to progress in life. That is the punishment side, but on the other, they give them resources to understand why what they did was wrong, to feel that genuinely, and then get to the root problem of what that was. What was missing from their life that lead them to it? A lot of the time, it's a poor job that leaves them feeling like a worthless social pariah. Other times it's something else, and they help them with that.

    That's way better, but I know it'd be a long process to get the US anything like that. I just think we should not, as a society, become jaded when we have real examples that something better is in fact possible. That dude has a whole life to live. He may even be a great help if he got his act together and changed his ways. I look at it that way as an optimist, but also a realist. If nothing is done, he gets the same punishment, and the he comes out worse than he went in.

    So to summarize, yes he needs some consequence, but we already have that. He will be punished, and should be punished, but it would be better for everyone if he had some amount of help to get him out of his hate, and into a place to live a good life.
     
  15. Daniel Plainview

    Daniel Plainview Fapstronaut

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    It's easy to label people like this as psychopaths or whatever, but in most cases what causes stuff like this to happen is mental illness. Maybe it was always there, or maybe it was triggered by trauma. Regardless, the constant frustration of viewing yourself as a low value or worthless male can be crushing for many, and we don't live in a world that is willing to listen to these frustrations or try to help. Instead incels are beaten down and laughed at until they either completely succumb to their despair or until they snap. Then when they do, they are used as a scapegoat to demonise lonely men even more, and hardly anyone bothers to look at the societal problems that led to them developing this mindset in the first place.

    You only have to look at the statistics to see that incels are on the rise and aren't going anywhere.
     
  16. IR254

    IR254 Fapstronaut

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    Your tax dollars are paying either way. So, if you don't wanna use the death penalty on every single criminal - which was abolished in lots of countries for very good reasons and is used sparingly in the rest of them - , you are paying no matter what you do.

    The question you have to ask then is, what is your goal? Revenge or rehabilitation? You can't have both, that's clear from criminologic studies. Almost nothing performs worse in reducing future crime than prison. What's also pretty well documented is, that victims of crime generally do not feel better after their offender gets "what he deserves". They usually realize pretty quickly, that the damage (mental, physical, financial) that has been done to them does not go away with punishment. What seems to work far better (even though it seems counter-intuitve and somewhat unfair), is acceptance and forgiveness. People, who manage to forgive their offenders, tend to have a higher quality of life afterwards. It's weird, but that's apparantly how it is. So, if you are just looking at it from this point of view, prison is the worst idea you could have.

    I am not saying, that you are wrong by the way, just to make this clear. I mean, many people follow an absolute theory of punishment like you do. Heck, even some of the most influenctial intellectuals on the planet did, just look at Kant or Hegel. However, I think it might be worth considering other options as well. Punishing people even though it doesn't do anything for anyone, doesn't seem like the best solution we could think of.
     
  17. Ask yourself what did it take for things to get to this point in society that we have guys doing stuff like this? If you see some of his videos in one the women physically attack him first by hitting him in the nuts after he verbally attacked them. But you know... that would be classed as "defending themselves" as per the new normal. When he was racist to the fast food employee the fast food employee was just as racist back. Racism goes both ways believe it or not. This guy is just a perfect scapegoat to put the blame on for everything negative perpetuated against men these days like "white privilege", "white supremacy", misogyny, and all these dumb labels. The media loves stories like this to always portray men as evil and women as perpetual victims. Then proud feminists go and abort their male babies aka "unwanted pregnancies" and then brag about it on social media as fighting the "patriarchy".
     
  18. TakingTheSteps

    TakingTheSteps Fapstronaut

    Yeah, I understand the difference. I just don't understand why people need to write a letter to someone to tell them not to be a terrible person who hates people for their gender. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

    If you personally want to do that, go right ahead, but I don't think society in general should feel any kind of responsibility to do so. I also really don't think your comparison to FTND is equivalent, but I'm just gonna leave that alone.

    I guess we just disagree on whether or not every prisoner deserves that. I think some do, and some don't. I think for some, depending on the severity of the crimes, it would be a massive injustice to the victims for them to get that kind of special treatment and life-coaching that most ordinary citizens would have to pay good money to get for themselves.

    Again, I understand your perspective, but I just don't know if we agree that the kind of prison system you are describing (that I used to advocate for myself) is a just amount/form of punishment for serious crimes.
     
  19. TakingTheSteps

    TakingTheSteps Fapstronaut

    Yeah, no duh... I understand how taxes work. But I would rather pay for a just punishment, not a vacation for criminals.

    Neither... justice. Justice is not "revenge." It's very silly to categorize it as such.

    Of course that's the case... nobody is suggesting that victims lives are going to be magically better just because their abuser is in prison. Of course that damage will last. But as I just said, justice has nothing to do with revenge. It's not about the victim getting revenge. It's about the perpetrator being given a just consequence for their actions. There are many reasons why that is important and valuable.

    Of course that's the case. Because, yet again, this has nothing to do with revenge. Revenge is toxic and helps nobody, and it has nothing to do with anything I've suggested. I haven't spoken at all about how victims can move on from the crimes committed against them... if I had, I would have suggested forgiveness and everything you just described. That's a different subject.

    Uh... no. These two things are not related in the way you are trying to make them related. Victims can move on and forgive their attackers while also being glad they are in prison and have gotten justice, and that the perpetrator is off the streets and receiving just punishment for their actions. Those two things are not at all mutually exclusive.

    I don't think you understand what kind of "theory of punishment" I follow. You seem to have greatly misunderstood and miscategorized my views thus far, and I certainly wouldn't use those words to describe what I believe.

    Lol what a ridiculous statement. Punishment absolutely does do a ton of good for a lot of people. You are only looking at the opposite side. Are you seriously suggesting that punishment is never useful? Never helpful to anyone in society, ever? I'm sorry, but I just find that absurd. If that statement were true, then I would agree that everything I've said here is foolish. But it's not true in the slightest.
     
  20. TakingTheSteps

    TakingTheSteps Fapstronaut

    And btw, I'm not at all saying I think the US prison system is great. I have many, many problems with it. My idea of what the justice system should look like is completely different. But I'm just discussing what we currently have to work with.
     

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