Separate names with a comma.
Discussion in 'Rebooting in a Relationship' started by BuddhaPunkRobotMonk, Mar 10, 2015.
Want me to start linking dating blogs then?
You could... but why would you?
You don't have to sift through poop just to prove that it smells.
Amazing thing about adult life - you get to choose whom to let into your world.
Get healthy, you attract healthy people. So even if 96/100 of the girls in your high school graduating class were worthless, awful, unbearable human beings, if you live in a small city of 30,000 or so, that still means there are several hundred GOOD people in your area, more than you'll ever have the time to get to know. But you have to get into the right frame of mind to find them. Once you've got your tribe, there's no need to waste attention on the antics of idiots.
I think that this thread (or at least its title) should be deleted by the administrators. It can make a lot harm to people needing help!
Everybody (including males reading this forum)deserve a good relationship. Being addicted to porn is basically GETTING ADDICT TO something, not different from being addicted to internet in general, to TV, to cigarettes, to consumption... In any adiction we are losing part of our best energies.
Please let self-flagelation for self-destruction addicts.
Thanks for posting this!
Here's the thing: Do you really want to attract those types of women into your life? Seriously. Let's put aside the PUA bullshit of "get in any girl's pants" because it just doesn't work for most guys. If it did, every guy would have done it after the first PUA product came out, and we wouldn't have so many so-called "gurus" spouting the same message. The goal is not to attract "most women". I personally don't have time to date "most women", and I don't know any guy who does. Your goal should be to attract the right woman for you, and if you don't respect women who flock to "players", there's really not much point in attracting them.
Incidentally, you seem to make two contradictory posts here. In the post above the one I quoted, you claim that you "really hate women", but then you say women are turned off by "nice guys". I don't know too many nice guys who hate an entire gender the way you claim to. And if you're not a nice guy, you should have women lining up to be with you, right?
In answer to the original question, I agree with Mumchance wholeheartedly. A lot of addicts say "I will quit for my girlfriend when I get one". The problem with this statement is that you almost certainly won't. After all, why would someone who wants to quit wait to do it? So what usually happens is the addict ends up sneaking around on said girlfriend because "what she doesn't know can't hurt her" and so on. Far better to be totally clean from PMO, or at least complete a reboot, before getting into a committed relationship.
I do believe it's acceptable to interact with women on a casual basis. I'm not talking about sleeping with women, I'm talking about having conversations, learning about them as people, learning how to communicate and so on. This is NOT about getting a girlfriend during your reboot, but it's about improving yourself so that when you beat this addiction, you'll be ready to look for a girlfriend.
I mostly agree with the OP, it would be ideal to be able to kick this habit before getting a GF, but what if it lasts a lifetime? What if we miss that opportunity - it ain't easy meeting girls. It can be a once in a lifetime thing.
And often during sex women will use us for their orgasm too- its not intimate all the time. That's fine, they are only human.
Often they will mistreat us in different ways (non sex related) - they are people too. People are like that.
But are they saying to themselves, "I can't find a BF until i get rid of my problem." .... Probably not.
And what about the women who withhold sex, which is a type of sex abuse. There probably isn't a single woman on earth who is like that saying, "I don't deserve a BF cos i don't have a libido." They would just get a BF anyway and do what they want. Probably blame him for wanting sex more than her. Woman seem to be treated as (and think they are) inherently innocent in matters of sex, often in different areas of life as well, maybe even most areas of life.
Being in a relationship doesn't mean you have to be perfect and you don't have to punish yourself to the extent that you are alone forever. Woman are wrongdoers too sometimes. I don't think you have to confess all about yourself, they ain't gonna do that for you.
And if they ain't with you, good luck to them finding a guy who doesn't watch porn and want to give them a facial (sorry). It seems part of mainstream life now. In fact, they should appreciate a guy who can see his problem and want to make it end.
Honestly all this sexism is really ridiculous. Both sides have good and bad. I am the girlfriend of a recovering addict, it's hard. I felt useless, ugly and used. Imagine having the person you love use you as a masterbation tool. I met him in high school, he was the shy-dorky kid no one really spoke to, we became best friends and the eventually lovers. He is the love of my life (5 years now) and I always thought his porn use was normal until about a year ago, things turned to the worse. How could the person I loved most in the world treat me like a piece of meat? Like any other girl he saw on his computer screen? After I learned the extent of his porn addiction I started to slowly break down, my self esteem was non existent. Recently he's realized what was causing his depression and our relationship to break apart and started nofap, we have also decided to abstain from any sexual contact so he can fully reboot. I support him 100%, this has been really tough but I know we can do this. When in a relationship it's no longer just you, what this post seems to be about is not being selfish. I applaud everyone here doing nofap, it's not an easy task but it'll make you much stronger than ever before =) I wish you all good health and good luck!
I haven't spent much time reading the comments of others, but I did read the post upon which this thread is centered on.
Though I agree with you that yes, there are many qualities of an addict that are not healthy for a relationship, I feel like I disagree with you about the entire notion that us fapstronauts don't deserve to be dating, which the entire post seems to suggest. I am not usually the one to sound uber-sensitive to what people say, but I get a sense that this notion that we don't deserve something based on our fapping experiences is not conducive to motivating people to improve themselves. It could be just the wording and the tonality of the post, but I feel like there are many fapstronaughts -- including myself-- that have been able to treat our significant others in the same way that this post suggests are unattainable by PMO addicts.
Yes I am an addict, but that does not mean that I have treated my lady like junk. To me, she is one of the most important and influential people in my life. Do I feel like I don't deserve her sometimes? Sure, but she will retort that she doesn't deserve me either because of how well I have treated her. I know this might sound like I am trying to showboat or sound cocky, but that's not the purpose; I am merely pointing out that us fapstronauts do deserve girlfriends and not all of us treat woman poorly. Would I say I have never thought sexually or dirty about my lady? No, because I have had those thoughts, but so has she, and she isn't an addict. Having sexual thoughts isn't a bad thing per say, it is in our nature. However, I don't have those thoughts swirling about, dictating my actions. From day one, I have always viewed her as a beautiful person-- both inside and out-- and one of the main reasons why I wouldn't dump her no matter how she looks on her off days: A woman's beauty is short term, but their character and personality stays forever (give or take a few tweaks here and there). I have met many beautiful woman that--yes, I admit to have had dirty thoughts about-- but those moments have always been short lived. I've been dating my significant other for over five years, and not once have I made a move on another woman (even when opportunity presented itself) because my mind would shut down thoughts of betrayal after I would realize that inside those so-called "beautiful women", they were spoiled rotten. In the end, the pleasure would have been minute compared to the amount of pain I would have inflicted on both my significant other and I.
One big reason why I am so vocal about this post is because I feel like women are instrumental in helping men get over their addiction. If I was single, sure I might have realized I had a problem, but I would not have had the motivation to change. My significant other was a major catalyst in helping and motivating me to better myself. If I didn't have her by my side, supporting me and letting me know when I'm doing well or when I need to step up, I am not sure I would have ever even sought out for help in the first place.
I realize that this post may be directed specifically at those who sit around all day and complain about how crappy their life is; how no woman wants to go out on a date with them. I totally understand that, and I agree with you that men should not objectify women as sexual objects. I wholeheartedly agree that women don't deserve to be neglected, to feel ugly, to have those negative thoughts about themselves. Every woman deserves to have a significant other that is truly worthy for them. Unfortunately, many men--many of whom AREN'T PMO-addicts-- treat women as if they are nothing more than a sex toy. Sadly, you don't have to be addicted to porn to treat woman poorly.
I also agree that men who complain, whether it be about not having a girlfriend, struggles with life, etc, etc etc. should aim to identify the problem (which all of us have *hopefully* done) and go about correcting those mistakes. What is most conducive to adjusting our behavior would be to channel that energy we would have spent on complaining and whining into something productive that would lead us to achieve the results we seek. Men with a PMO addiction should probably seek help and transform themselves before they embark in the dating world, but is there any way we can emphasize this point in such a way that readers struggling with relapse could use to motivate themselves? Had I relapsed before reading this, I might have felt worse about myself and truly felt like I don't deserve a girlfriend--whether or not that was the case. Instead of having that feeling as a result of reading this post, I think we could have found better words to serve to inspire and catalyze change. Kinda like whether negative criticism is as helpful as constructive criticism? I guess in the end, it really depends on the person reading this post and what they take away from it.
In either case, thanks for the post!
I agree with this post. With the benefit of hindsight I don't think I/we do deserve the love of someone special. Whilst I didn't really realise when I went into my relationship with my ex that I was already severely addicted, or what the impact of that would be, I put myself first in every sense. I withheld just about every affection she so richly deserved, and robbed her of her self esteem, making her feel ugly and unattractive in the process. All while claiming to love her, which in my head, I did. But, I allowed My addiction and depression to rob me of any ability to genuinely show it. It took her rejection of me for me to even question what was going on in my mind. I can't believe I pushed her so far. But for dong it I have everything I deserve. Nothing.
Gotta say dating an addict is no easy thing. It hurts you in ways that leave you raw, it's one thing to recover while in relationship but to go into a relationship is a different story altogether.
Wholeheartedly disagree with OP.
We all got here from a slightly different place.
Haven't even glanced at porn since I got serious about this.
Ask any woman I've dated if I treated her like my queen or not.
Watched HOURS of porn with my ex.
The last 3 woman I've any level of intimacy with with divorced mothers with bullshit jobs and high stress levels that craved human contact just as much as me or more, even if we both knew it wasn't going to go anywhere.
I'm not even sure if my problem is PIED or Performance Anxiety. But since I'm single PIED is the only one I can realistically work on.
I agree. Not with everything, but with the basic idea.
Until you are actively comitted to cleaning up your life you dont deserve a girl. Women arent a given in life. Neither are men.
If youre someone who doesnt have it together and objectifies another person, then you dont deserve another person. If you are sick of your own choosing then you need to heal yourself first.
I learned this the hard way.
And there ARE loving women out there that love their man enough to stand by, not judge and honestly want to see their man succeed. I have no problems with porn. And my man is luckily enough not addicted. But it is a factor in our sex life and the desensitization is apparent to me. However, after finding about this movement on yourbrainonporn.com...if this reboot can give my man clarity. Help him move past procrastination and into the life he deserves to live, then I will do everything in my power to support him. Also...that being said we are in a committed relationship. Trying to get a girlfriend right now defeats the purpose. All she will see, if you are man enough to share it with her, is the fact that she has a man thay doesnt watch porn. I think any woman would be excited whether they watch it themselves or not. Having a new girlfriend in this time is just making more stress and opportunity for relapse in the near future. Take the time to focus on yourself. When you become the man you are underneath this shadow tou will then deserve to have a strong beautiful self sufficient sexy woman at your side. Fat short tall ugly doesnt matter what you look like this day in age if you pay her attention, dont objectify her and treat her the way you think you deserve to be treated. .then she will just be there. You have to focus and do this for yourself and the woman who will finally be your real fantasy once this is all over and you are successful. Once you deserve her and this works both ways...this woman will be working on herself too. One day 2 successful people shall meet... good luck but take this time to focus on the love you have for yourself. You deserve to not be ashamed or embarrassed. You deserve to get through it and live a life outside of your box.
Most girls are turned off by nice guys who treat them right? Each and every single girl I have ever come across has never once been turned off by simple, honourable actions. Actually, I have observed the opposite: they loved when I treated them in a fitting manner. Now of course I cannot possibly perceive the experiences you've had with women over the years, but I truly believe you have this backwards.
That negative thinking isn't gonna help you at all bro. It's a big world.
That's not how it works. Thoose types of women want assholes and that's fine. We as men just get mad because the girls we often want are shallow. Theres plenty of level headed down to earth cool hot women. It's a numbers game. What you project genuienly you attract. Don't chase women. Attract them
Both sides certainly have valid points. Both sides also seem to have some flawed reasoning, and I'm definitely not saying mine will be infallible.
I suppose it's safe to say I agree with the general premise on which the OP seems to be working. No, a PMO addict does not deserve to have a beautiful, loving, supportive woman in his life. It would simply be unfair. But try to think of it from the woman's perspective: of she truly cares about you, she may just want to be there for you to help you through one of the noblest efforts a man in this day and age can undertake. Does this mean that you should go looking for someone to help you through this? No, if you can't shake PMO with what you got already, you damn sure shouldn't place that burden on anyone else.
I do also think there is something to be said about the target audience of this thread. It is clearly aimed at full-blown PMO addicts that complain about not having a girlfriend for whatever reason. That considered, I am inclined to agree a good deal more with the OP. These people are clearly self-centered, and would not fair well in an intimate relationship with the opposite sex, if such a thing could even be attained.
I believe this is a thoroughly worth-wile discussion and I hope to see it continue for as long as NoFap exists, whether on this thread or others.
I think the OP's post could indeed be damaging to men trying to overcome their addiction. Can you imagine a guy slapping himself because he jerked off again, because he couldn't resist. That could be your average guuy on the forum here. Now he's going online for some support and he sees he doesn't deserve a girlfriend because he couldn't make it to 90 days. Great job man, really supportive.
Besides that I think the responses are much more reasonable and thoughtful.
One can never argue for/against what one deserves. To deserve implies some sort of justice or righteousness. These sort of moral arguments however do never really rely on sound logic. This has to do with the is-ought problem, proposed by David Hume. In a moral argument about what is right or wrong one could really argue for just about anything.
My honest thoughts on the matter are these. Women are moral agents. They are just as intelligent as men. They are free to leave and in most western countries they can leave a relationship without consequences. She is responsible for her choice of leaving or not leaving. It is not our responsibility to judge this sort of matter. If I treat my supportive girlfriend like dirt and I have a big time porn addictionand it is her choice to stay with me. Well then I respect that choice. If I treat her like a queen and she decides to leave, I respect that choice as well. I may look for a girlfriend whenever I want, because she herself can decide whether to stay in the relationship or not. As long as I don't engage in deception about who I am (as well as my porn addiction) she is perfectly capable of making her own decision.
Not having girlfriends is mostly for the benefit of us fapstronauts and our benefits means the benefits of the possible girlfriends we may have during our reboot, and I think that was emphasized in Mumchance's other post. We need to shut down our whole sexuality for 5-6 months if we want profundity in our experiences both in and out of relationships. I have noticed that it's very confusing and there's alot of PMO sort of lust involved in my desire for girlfriends during my reboot. It's much better to give ourselves a break from 'all these sexual things' than to put massive efforts into a relationship just so we can come across as caring. I think every individual needs to develop this sort of self-sufficiency before they put themselves 'out there' be it a relationship or involved in anything with other people in it (anything external).
I think it's an excellent post, because many of us fapstronauts since we are rebooting have a
desire to have a girlfriend soon. We are restless and agitated all the time and we think that a interacting sexually with a female will solve that and make us calm again. We're in a bad stage of our lives to be looking for girlfriends. It's like an alcohol addict drinking water with the intention of getting drunk and being relieved of the tension.
The best girlfriend for us now is meditation or things of the sort. We need to have strong tools and virtuous qualities before we can start something great, something constructive, with another person or just elsewhere.
It's also a good post because some of us are uncertain about whether we should get girlfriends while we reboot or not, and Mumchance is reminding us that the whole thing will be a disaster if we DO get girlfriends. Guys who are married here do hard mode for months and then they allow themselves to become sexual again with their wives. I also think that having girlfriends in our reboot but telling them we're PMO addicts will be disastrous and complicated too. It's like going to confess to a priest not about your past sins but what you're about to do. I can't imagine "I love being with you honey, but watch out for the times that I am completely numb to your presence and the times where I endlessly rape other girls in my head until I ejaculate semen" would make for a good relationship.
I think it's great that we decide to go hard mode in our heads to. We need this space in which to form our character, not to serve a future girlfriend well, but to be a grounded person who needs nothing from the world and only gives to spread his light. Replacing our porn stars or mental rape victims with less objectified females is just a disaster and will require a lot of work. Temporary celibacy is the best choice for most of us fapstronauts.