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The Difference Between Good and Bad Dating Advice - What ‘Pick Up’ Conveniently Ignores

Discussion in 'Dating during a Reboot' started by LycurgusTheLawgiver, Sep 9, 2020.

  1. LycurgusTheLawgiver

    LycurgusTheLawgiver Fapstronaut

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    There are an enormous number of different ways to destroy or damage any object constructed by man, these ways for the most part require less skill and intuition than it would take to construct that object in the first place. Furthermore, any one mode of destruction can almost always be applied equally successfully to the destruction of a large number of different individual objects: objects which may belong to entirely different classes or categories, and involve vastly different processes of construction. Destruction is a general phenomenon then, construction a specific one. For, when it comes to the successful construction of man-made objects, each particular object is constructed in a manner and a sequence particular to it, and it alone, we might call this its unique context.


    In this post I would like to argue that romantic interactions between men and women operate in a way not unlike that of the construction and destruction of man-made objects in the example given above. In other words, each romantic social interaction occurs and unfolds within its own unique context, and as such it is impossible to prescribe with any consistent degree of success, positive universal specific rules, or ‘do’s’ for a successful interaction i.e. the precise words to say at precise times, the correct moment to try to kiss a lady, how long a date should last, where it should take place etc. But that it is in fact, only really possible to generalise (and even here we must exercise great caution) about specific modes of speech, behaviour, timing etc. which might generally be expected to destroy or to have a detrimental effect upon most social interactions. In other words when it comes to situationally specific dating advice, it is not possible to prescribe general ‘do’s’, but only - and with some caution - general ‘don’t’s’. Anyone familiar with modern ‘pickup’ thinking, will of course be aware that the prescription of general ‘do’s’ is precisely what ‘pickup’ attempts to achieve; as such I would venture that this is one of the several fatal mistakes in ‘pickup’ thinking, and one of the major reasons why ‘pickup’ is a pseudoscience, comparable to say astrology or alchemy.


    Now, it may be contended here by some that there are in fact general ‘do’s’ that may be prescribed with some consistent degree of success, and which are in fact applicable to almost all romantic social interactions e.g. “wear clean clothes”, “make sure you’ve taken a shower that day”, “arrive on time” etc. But a closer analysis of these apparently general positive prescriptions soon reveals to us that they are in fact general negative prescriptions after all; in other words, they are not really ‘do’s’, but ‘don’t’s’. You see when we say: “wear clean clothes”, we are really saying “don’t wear dirty clothes”; by “have a shower before hand” what we really mean to say is, “make sure that you don’t smell”; in insisting upon punctuality, we are in fact pointing out that arriving 30 minutes late is almost always likely to have a negative impact on a social interaction, and that therefore, it is something that one ought generally not to do. By extending our analysis here to make a quick comparison with a few of the general ‘do’s’, the like of which are commonly prescribed by people from within the so-called ‘pick up community’, and which collectively make up almost the entirety of ‘pickup’ doctrine; we shall be able to see quite plainly the difference between the general ‘don’t’ contained within a statement such as “wear clean clothes”, and the general ‘do’s’ contained within statements such as: “first comment on her appearance, by making an assumption about her nationality e.g. ‘You look so Italian, you are from Tuscany, no?’”, or “after ten minutes with her in the first cafe, slam your hand down on the table, look her in the eye, and say ‘right let’s go’”, or how about, “In the second venue after about thirty minutes of light flirting it is time to go for the kiss”. These pieces of advice are universal specific ‘do’s’: universal in the sense that they are intended to be followed in all interactions of a certain class irrespective of the unique context of each interaction; specific in the sense that they prescribe a specific thing to do or say, or in that they prescribe a specific moment for doing or saying a certain thing. As such these pieces of advice, so quintessentially ‘pickup’, are unhelpful, and can never offer consistent success to those who follow them - more often than not in fact, they can have the very opposite effect - since they ignore the fact that each interaction, and every part of each interaction takes place in its own utterly unique and unpredictable context. What I mean to say is that in ‘romantic interaction A’, occurring and unfolding within its own unique context, it may well be that “going for the kiss after thirty minutes of light flirting in the second bar” is a good idea, or at least isn’t a self-sabotaging one, whereas in a separate interaction - ‘romantic interaction B’, occuring and unfolding within its own unique context “going for the kiss after thirty minutes of light flirting in the second bar” may be entirely inappropriate to the situation, and thus will more likely than not serve to sabotage the whole romance.


    Thus does ‘pickup’ deny thousands upon thousands of men the opportunity not only of partaking in the joy of spontaneous social interaction with women; but, by thoughtlessly prescribing universal specific ‘do’s’, it denies them the opportunity of developing their social intuition; and means that when they do finally have a successful romantic interaction it is only through sheer luck - in the sense that on that particular occasion, the unique context of the interaction just so happened to be congruent with their routine. For, ‘pickup’ is like an even less reliable version of the proverbial broken clock; for if, as the saying goes, ‘even a broken clock is right twice a day’ - a ‘pickup’ routine, is right only once every now and then. It is more like a broken thermometer really.

    Understanding this reality then, may help men to better judge the value of the kind of dating advice being offered to them from various different online sources. Asking oneself if the advice being given is ‘principle based’: aimed at making the right personal choices in view of the prevailing conditions of contemporary social reality, and thus fundamentally changing oneself for the better, thus making oneself permanently more attractive in the long-term; or, whether the advice is ‘technique based’ claiming that personal attractiveness is a ‘skill’: and focusing mainly on the content of one’s speech, body language, and physical gestures, and the timing and sequence of these things. Asking this simple question, in light of the practical considerations which I have outlined at the beginning of this post then, might save a lot of wasted time and money.

    For useful advice will always be based on general social principles, and consist in helping a man to make the right choices based upon those principles, principles rooted in a close observation of the real world and the prevailing socio-sexual conditions at play. Such an approach aims fundamentally at raising one’s overall sexual market value or at least maximising it by making the right personal choices, and minimising bad ones; whereas the latter category of advice is a kind of nostrum prescribed by the romantic equivalent of a snake oil salesman, and claims to help a man effect a kind of of Sexual Market fraud on a consistent basis, by teaching him to mimic the speech, body language, physical gestures, and sequence and timing of these things utilised by genuinely attractive men. It’s easy they will say, anyone can do it!
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2020
    NF SINCE BIRTH likes this.
  2. Nice post. Thanks for an in depth analysis:) I would agree with most points in your post. Pick up lines isnt going to take you that far. Being spontaneous, having a sense of humor, some self confidence and socializing a lot is the way to go.
     
    LycurgusTheLawgiver likes this.
  3. Der Drachenkönig

    Der Drachenkönig Fapstronaut

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    Great Post right there and i really like how you've summarized the problem with pickup and dating advice. I don't think dating advice is inherently bad, i mean some of the advice should be a given as a thing of pure common sense, such as: Arrive on time, have good hygiene, be respectful of the other person, do not overstep your boundaries if you do not have the clearance to do so, etc. As well for the specific ones in regards to interaction which actually make sense such as: Don't emphazise beauty because the girl in question has probably heard she's beautiful a dozen times and you may come across as cringy, also it's shallow. And my personal favorite: Don't go with flower bouquets or even an engagement ring when it's only a regular out for some coffee kind of date. Those i can understand.
    However my problem with a lot of dating advice from so called coaches or pickup "artists" is that they tend to go too much over the do's and dont's basically viewing women as though they were automatons with instruction manuals on how to operate, that is how many of these tend to sound or look like.
    And as a result many people to put it simply "Try too hard" when in reality all you have to do is be confident, be yourself and spontaneous. You don't have to be someone you're not just in order to impress somebody, in fact don't that's just absurd. I speak for myself when i say i won't go to date wearing disguises (namely fashion styles i DON'T like at all) or act as though i was a cheap version of Johnny Bravo just to get a girl to like me. Really, don't try too hard, it's best when things just flow naturally. Social skills can be worked on by socializing, if you have problems with that then don't force yourself to become a social butterfly from the get go, little by little you'll improve but that has to be done for your own improvement, i say this because many settle for that goal just in order to get girls which in the end is really counterproductive. If you do because you want to improve and work for it, that's how confidence is made, out of doing things before getting them right.
     
  4. I have been approaching girls I like on the street for 2 years. I knew in advance that I would like your post and that you would have an interesting reflection on the subject.

    The advice you can find on the internet does not contribute to make us free but on the contrary to lock us in beliefs. To act in a way that is not authentic.These tips are often very superficial and contribute more to awakening our frustration than to helping us.


    We all agree that we want to make beautiful encounters, to spend intense and incredible moments with the women we meet. The same goes for women.
    We can't pretend this if we are abnubilized by material desires (to sleep with as many girls as possible, to get something from girls, to prove something to ourselves, to act on our ego and pride rather than our true nature).

    If we go back to the source, we quickly understand that if we seek dating advice, it is simply because we are not at peace with ourselves. This is a truth that is difficult to accept but necessary. Then begins a process of unconditional acceptance of oneself. A process in which we no longer seek external validation or as much result as possible because whatever happens, we love ourselves as we are. We realize that satisfying our desires does not bring us fulfillment. That true happiness comes from within.

    We can't connect emotionally with girls if we don't love ourselves unconditionally. Or we will connect with girls who are in the same situation as we are: looking for validation.
    There's nothing wrong with flirting. It's very honorable to assume our desire and show our vulnerability in a world where everyone pays attention to the image they project. It's a mark of purity.
    But a man who is not ok with himself will only bring suffering to himself and to others.

    Experience and learning come from practicing, from going out of our comfort zone to talk to girls. There is no real need for advice. We just need to establish habits that allow us to feel at peace with ourselves and to share the caring we all have deep inside.

    Most men date girls to prove themselves and to fill the emptiness they feel inside. They don't really like the girls they meet for who they are but the image they project when they are with them.
    A man who is deeply at peace with himself, who loves himself and doesn't feel the need to prove anything doesn't even ask himself this kind of question. His presence alone is enough. It is no longer a question of flirting technique, appearance or oversized ego, it goes far beyond that.
    It's about being kind to yourself.

    We are no longer trying to fill a void, we are enough.
     
    NF SINCE BIRTH likes this.
  5. LycurgusTheLawgiver

    LycurgusTheLawgiver Fapstronaut

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    So true! I’ve never taken it upon myself to think about this particular aspect of ‘pickup’ strategy in any great depth before, confining myself mainly to a close consideration of the principal absurdities which stem from reducing personal attractiveness to a ‘skill’, but of course you are dead right! ‘Wearing disguises’ what a brilliant way of summing it up! That really is the essence of it.
     
    Der Drachenkönig likes this.
  6. ShadyPerson

    ShadyPerson Fapstronaut

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    I once read a quora reply which had something to do with wether pick up works or not. I think that reply got it right. The pick up routines aren't an end all be all formula for social interaction, but rather training wheels for socially awkward guys to get their social skills going. Of course the content of the routines and wether it's moral or does it work etc. can be debated, since pick up is a huge umbrella term for a lot of different approaches, but I don't think the idea of pick up in and of itself when used right is necessarily bad. I personally found the Game by Neil Strauss to be useful to an extent. Not necessarily everything in it, but rather certain bits and pieces clarified basic social interactions a lot to me. (Don't put people on pedestal, don't be affraid to stand out, you don't always need to be just nice etc. are generally just very good points that a lot of people miss.)
     

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