Surprising Assumptions

Thank you. I absolutely understand the difference in how this is personal for the SO. I disagree that nothing is consumed. I absolutely have consumed very dark things.

Following up on your view that it's important that she knows what I looked at... Please help me understand. I'll give you an example.

What is the difference between if I told her I looked at lesbian sex vs bondage? How can she use that information to her benefit?

 

@TryingHard2Change, @TryingToHeal, and @EyesWideOpen

Thank you very much for your feedback. I will be revisiting this subject specifically when I meet my with therapist next week. For the record, he has never said anything like "Don't tell your wife what you edge to". Instead, he has said things like "I (meaning him) don't need to know what you edge to for our work to be successful." He and I are in agreement that that she doesn't have to know. But I have not discussed in detail what the pros and cons are of doing so with him. Time-allowing, that will be my primary point of discussion.

I don't think we need to keep going around in circles on this issue. You are probably frustrated by me and I am frustrated as well. Understand that I have heard everything you said and appreciate your advice and will address it further. If all goes well with my therapist, I will immediately be addressing this with my wife. I really hope that this doesn't damage her more.

I'm not so sure that telling her what I've edged to is going to work. After 35 years of porn, it will be A LOT easier to just tell her what I haven't edged to. That's the truth.

 

Hello and no problem about the flow.

Yeah, edging. It's one of those words that I think kind of gets blurred between different people. It was actually kind of an important word for me in my recovery efforts. For me, it's very stringent and I would probably define it as this: Any conscious action I take which works directly against my recovery efforts.

I think your classic definition of drawing out the pleasure is very good. It's that slow drip of dopamine that's so addictive and dangerous. For me, I wanted a definition for latching onto ANY behavior that ultimately might lead to the classic masturbation. So I define edging this way: If I simply turn on Fox News because I want to see some host showing leg, or if I do a Google Search on a singer to see what new pictures are out there of her, or if I think of a girl I saw in yoga and start generating a fantasy about her... Even if I do these things for 5 seconds, that's edging. That's the slippery slope that turns to classic M and then O.

If I want to check out Fox News and pick up the remote, then catch myself and stop, I'm good. I haven't edged. If I type in that channel number and hit OK and the channel comes up, I reset my counter. That little action, to me, is harmful and a relapse. And it's also why my counter sometimes gets stuck at 0 and rarely makes it about 7 days.

If I imagine that girl I saw in yoga and find myself fantasizing about her and stop myself as soon as I recognize this, then I do not do a reset. I believe that the key word of 'conscious' in my definition is important. I don't blame or punish myself for doing something subconsciously. I think that it is normal for men to find themselves attracted to women and occasionally fantasize. But for me, right now in my life, I need to remove this behavior. Keeping myself THAT clean is not easy. But lately I have had more clean days than bad ones lately and my streaks have gotten longer and more frequent. That tells me I'm making progress.

So to summarize my way-too-long response, I put all pre-orgasm behavior under the edging umbrella.

I'm not sure how to address the statement about saying that I've given up M and O. I don't every want to participate in PMO again. I am employing a ton of tools, time and effort into stopping. But I am addicted and so I do slip/relapse/reset. To be very clear, I don't ever want to even begin edging to anything again. I don't ever give myself permission to do that. It's never okay.

And finally, the exact behavior that led to the disagreement with my wife is probably better described as a misunderstanding about my behavior. She was under the impression that I was struggling with things that would pop up in my head or that I would run across in my daily course of life. What I was actually struggling with was the active seeking of these things. She knew that nice legs on Fox News might be a trigger for me. She didn't know that I would turn that channel on when she wasn't around. It's a big, important difference, obviously. But due to the fact that we didn't flesh things out better in the beginning, we both assumed things incorrectly. That has since been addressed and we are working on making sure we fully understand each other.

HTH,
BreatheDeeply

 

Thank you. She hasn't asked me repeatedly about this. I think it really only came up once, and she wasn't crazy about my reason, but hasn't asked me again since. Since that time, she has started seeing her therapist. Part of my discussion with her may be me asking her if she has asked her own therapist about this issue. (sorry... confusing sentence). In other words, has her therapist told her anything in regards to this.

Part of the overall thinking is that I've done a ton of damage. If we can get through this without making things worse, then we can put it behind us and lead a promising and happy life. But if she needs to know to get through it all, then that's what we may need to work towards.

I don't know your personal history and I don't know how many addicts you've talked to. I understand that this has been/is damaging to you and I feel for you. This probably won't help much and I can only speak for myself, but I'll repeat some things that you've already heard:

As an addict: I didn't want any of this. I didn't want the problem. I didn't want to lie. I didn't want to lead two lives. I developed my problem as a result of living in 23 different homes in the first 23 years of my life. I was lost before I ever had a chance. And it all made/makes me feel like shit, makes me feel inadequate as a man, makes me feel small in life. I do not want to be with these other women. I reduce them to body parts. I do not see them as human beings. And I hate how I now have to work hard to be an adult when I'm surrounded by people who have been adults for 30 years. My addiction, the things I've looked at, those are not me. I know that I wouldn't want to participate in the porn I have been addicted to getting off to because it disgusts me. It took me time to love myself and realize that addiction can be separated from the individual as much as something like cancer can be. And probably the most difficult thing an SO can hear from an addict: It's nothing personal. That sucks hearing and I can certainly understand the anger and disbelief that comes with that. But I can honestly tell you that my attraction to fantasy/porn is dopamine-driven and an incorrect wiring of my brain while my attraction to my wife is my what my heart feels and wants. The former can be corrected, the latter never will be.

 

Thank you. These words mean a lot to me.

I post here on this forum not only to work on my own issues, but to (hopefully) help others in small ways here and there. My handle - BreatheDeeply - is advice to myself and others, and my signoff (HTH) means Hope That Helps. Through the recovery podcast I listen to, I'm often reminded that helping others is of significant benefit to myself and I find that true.

 

Not for a second have I ever believed that.

 

Ug. Yeah. No winning solution. Pain all around.

 

An Update

Again thanks to everyone for their feedback. So I talked with my wife last week and asked if me telling her about everything I've viewed would help her in her recovery. Here's a brief and honest synopsis:

I think she was a bit taken aback by my question. She wanted to know where it was coming from and so I told her about my discussion here with PA's and SO's and how I had been given a different perspective to consider.

She thought about it briefly and then stated that she honestly didn't know. She stated that she wanted to ask her therapist about it and asked that I revisit it my own therapist.

Her therapist was originally recommended by mine and my wife has found her very helpful so far in that she understands the general nature of addictions - though has not had a ton of experience in PMO addiction. In this case, her therapist 'deferred' to mine with the comment that he would understand this matter a little bit better. (In fact, my therapist later said that when he gets together with other local experts, they are often picking his brain for information about porn addiction because it is still so new to the psych community and he is constantly doing research in the area.)

My therapist was fascinated that our conversation turned to this question. He reiterated that he didn't see the need for it and that it could indeed set things backwards - especially where we have progressed so far. However, he did state that it was up to me and my wife to determine if it would be necessary for her to move forward. Of note: He repeatedly stated that he felt the very fact that we even discussed the specific issue was much more important to our overall healing. It showed a willingness to explore difficult parts of my addiction and our recovery.

Upon discussing the suggestions by our therapists, my wife was still not sure what she wanted to do. I told her that if she wanted to think about it, we'd give it a month and revisit the topic then. If both of us continue to make improvements, that may change our outlook and that's where we stand today.

In the meantime, I soon hope open up and involve her more in my day-to-day progress.

HTH,
BreatheDeeply