Natural male masturbation?

And I'm saying that you defined that definition of natural, therefore how can it have any moral basis? That was my original point, the one before you replied. To base something's morality solely on how natural it is is wrong, it takes the seriousness out of things that actually do have a moral basis without ever needing to be unnatural to be considered immoral, such as person on person crime. Love is unnatural because it is non-existent in nature (no real data) and it is non-functional, according to Mr. Spock. Oh wait but it does exist in nature because it exists and Spock is a fictional character, so obviously my sarcasm is misplaced. But wait, in order for something to be unnatural it cannot exist in nature....? But how can something not exist in nature if it exists? Nature, by very definition, is present everywhere in the universe, no matter if you're on the ISS or simply in your own head. Very confusing stuff. Does that mean that test tube babies are immoral? Asking from the shorter scope.

 

My sexuality was never a choice.
I've never been attracted to females, even as very yoing boy I knew I didn't want to kiss girls, touch girls or anything else. So it definitely was NOT a choice for me

 

Sorry but most of this is just rambling. You tied morality to "natural", i said that morality is way too complex and subjective to comprehend so we are left with the more straightforward question on whether it is natural or not. And it's not. If you want to use "natural" as "everything", obviously the discussion is pointless, because everything becomes natural and, in consequence "okay"

 

I believe you. But I also believe that if you truly wanted to you could turn that statement on its head. I have a lot of faith in people. I'm not saying that you should or need to, and my faith is not intended to imply that doing so is the answer. I just have a lot of experience with taking advantage of how the brain works in order to make changes. I was never 'gay' though.

 

That´s nothing more then your very own personal just too human definition of "natural". If there were no evolutionary reasons and positive selection effects by homosexuality and/or bisexuality, they would have been vanished already thousands of years ago. You try to sell your personal biased opinion as some kind of objective science, which can only work with very young or rather simple minds.

 

No, people are saying it is wrong to be gay because it is unnatural, but that makes it a matter of opinion because who is to say what is really natural? There are useful definitions, yes, but those are objective and aren't concerned with morality. People take religious meaning out of scientific data all the time, doesn't mean they're right.

 

Tell that to lgbt that is already hard at work selling LGBT propaganda to children in kindergarten.

There is an evolutionary advantage to some bisexuality in nature, two males can defend a nest better for example. In most cases it's not needed therefore it does not exist. Homosexuality has already been selected out for decades/centuries/millenias, it used to be a very fringe thing, now everbody magically discovers they are "gay or bi" or, more recent, that they are "transsexual".

Sexual orientation can be modified and has been successfully modified already in an experiment in humans and it has already been show that sexual orientation can be controlled in animals though up or downregulation of serotonin.

You can take natural and try to spin it but natural does have a meaning, and it's not "everything". If natural just meant "everything in nature", we would just call it as such.

Try telling someone that being born with 2 heads is "natural" just because you think natural means what you think it means.

 

Okay, try telling the mother of the homosexual that her son was lynched because he was 'unnatural.'

Whatever you're doing, it's not helpful to the discussion. Calling someone unnatural is not very nice and probably won't help them in the long run with a problem. I don't understand how someone can be considered unnatural when they are standing right there in front of me. /metaphor

Also, don't worry about the kids. The worst that can happen is you will become a minority, anyway.

 

I know right. Nofap has been nothing if not humbling.

 

Very good explanation!

 

This is called an Appeal to Emotion. Completely irrelevant to the discussion, just a cheap way to try and get the upper hand. Yes, homosexuals were persecuted and that's not ok, but that's also completely irrelevant on how natural/normal the behavior is or is not.

I'm not here to protect feelings, nor am I here to hurt feelings. I'm simply here to have honest, objective discussions.

How do you feel about what you just wrote here.

 

Relevant because it shows what this kind of thinking can do and to bring up past uses of it. It was not at all intended to appeal to any emotion except perhaps awe.

I'm not talking about feelings, I'm talking about how telling someone that who they are is wrong, regardless if it is permanent, is not going to help them get over whatever is afflicting them. That's like if a I was a counselor who treated sex offenders and I start insulting them and telling them how 'unnatural' they are. No use here.

And I feel okay about it. There's not much any one of us can do to change the tides, and who am I to say that what we are progressing towards will be any better or worse than what we already have? Things in nature have a tendency to balance out, at whatever energy state they have, but this is not always the case for people. They revert and cycle and norms and ideas change. Nothing to be afraid of. Nothing is permanent, all is temporary.
Aside from that, I think it was rude to imply that I wished you were a minority. Do you forgive me?

 

Thanks

 

Of course it is "natural", do you seriously believe siamese twins or albinos would be a artificial creations or "abominations" produced by a machine?
They might not be "normal" , but that is something completly different.
How do you believe human race has been evolved from monkey business to building space ships and using the internet today ? By following the 10 commandments and divine miracles?

 

Well, just because it is normal or natural doesn't mean you have to accept it, either. But it may mean that getting upset about won't solve your problem.

 

So this thread was supposed to be about masturbation, without porn. Now it is a debate about nature vs nurture. So here's a simple question for you philosophers to mull. How come so many guys, particularly young guys, claim to be gay or bi, but they have never actually had real sex with a real man. HOw can they possibly know? How can a totally straight person know for sure they are not bisexual, until they have tried real sex with a real man? They can't. And many never will. This to me proves that most same sex fantasies are just that, porn induced fantasies which fuel our addictions. Very few are truly homosexuals. And I would propose that very few are absolutely pure hetero. Thing is most will just accept how they "feel" or what they "believe" and never find the truth of who they really are. It seems to me that our OP is discovering that even though he may try to identify as homosexual, indeed he may not be.