Research on effects of disclosing/not disclosing P use to SO

Lmao. Being happy while living a life that is not real is NOT being "satisfied" with the real relationship. The fact that she was upset when she found out absolutely demonstrates that she was happy with the fantasy relationship that didn't exist, NOT the real one. I did not love my husband, I loved the fake person he tricked me into marrying.

Secretly going to anyone but your partner for sexual purposes is cheating. Period. If you are doing it secretly, you obviously already know it's wrong. I never explicitly promised my spouse that I wouldn't secretly take 10% of our income and hoard it away to take secret vacations by myself throughout the years. That's still stealing and I don't get to drop a "sorry, I grew up thinking it's normal" as a way to insinuate that what I did was somehow not stealing.

 

The only extramarital sexual behavior that is not cheating is behavior explicitly agreed upon by both parties. It's basic consent. Your partners did not consent to having sex with someone who was also having extramarital sexual interactions.

It's the same way that any sexual encounter not consented to is rape. The drugged girl can't say no because her ability to say no was removed. The wife could not say no to a relationship that included your porn addiction because by hiding it, you removed her ability to say no. That did not make it a yes or a maybe.

 

This is a fantastic point to mention, especially when others think PMO isn’t a form a cheating. Obviously if it wasn’t considered cheating within the relationship, you wouldn’t be hiding it or worried about disclosing it.

 

Noooooooo!
Please don't tell her!
If you do, she'll flip out!

 

I agree with you on this, I subscribe to the view a scripture expresses that I think whether a person is religious or not can agree with.

"Everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

That's really what sticks with me anyway on the varying degrees of sexual infidelity. At the same time though, I've never physically cheated, or engaged in any other sexual deviance other than PMO, never spent a dime on chatrooms, OF, or anything else. And the level of the discretion really is relevant in some capacity. I think basically that difference is that the disclosure is easier because it's a "lesser" degree of the same crime. But the betrayal is the same, depending on each individual partner and how they feel about it of course.

There is one other element though that I have thought of several times when these debates start on this topic. There are other reasons a person hides this behavior other than just from a spouse/partner because it's cheating. Society, churches, parents, peers, all can cast incredible amounts of judgement on someone struggling with P addiction, that coupled with shame creates that same environment I was talking about before. And often this is a young adolescent kid making this decision to repress this problem instead of opening up about it and it follows into adulthood.

 

Sarcasm?

 

No he believes this

 

I agree. If we love someone, then it should be complete. How would you like it if your spouse said "honey, I love you 60% and this other thing 40%" Do you think any healthy self-respecting man would accept that response from the woman they love? I hope not.

I get what you're saying, but that kind of sounds like "honey, I know I punched you, but I didn't punch you as hard as I could have, so you shouldn't look at me as an actual abuser."

I'm not going to say those elements don't exist, but they're kind of a moot point, right? If it's already against your moral values, which you've indicated it is, then even if you take the peer, parents, society, and church element out of the equation you're still left with the same dlima. You did something wrong and hid it. Unless you're proposing that if you didn't have to worry about society, churches, parents, and peers you would have been open and public with your wife about your porn addiction. Is that what your'e saying?

 

I’m kinda with you on this. Never did I ever think I could be tempted to cheat. But, having a spouse who continually rejected me, refused to meet my barest minimal needs, AND being exhausted, incredibly unhappy in my relationship, but not wanting to divorce, made me very vulnerable. When a man 10 years younger, my ideal physical appearance began paying attention to me, I was very tempted. I literally switched work schedules to help “ flee temptation” and told my sister about what I was going through. The only reason I did not cheat was because I knew that although it would feel great in the moment, I would hate myself afterwards. I could not be that person. But I was perilously close.

 

Ah, yes, the "I'm looking out for her welfare, not mine" position. One would think if you were truly concerned for her welfare, you wouldn't have crossed her boundaries to begin with, right? Kind of convenient how now that it comes to a personal cost to you, you're all of a sudden concerned about her.

 

I also get what you are saying, I suppose it depends on the actual conversation because there is a difference and that was what I'm pointing out. I do think conflating looking at a magazine vs prostitution is painting with a very broad brush though. Again, I think it causes the same betrayal just in different doses.

On this topic, disclosure, and the post about how to apologize that @Hope4healing has shared, probably a year ago addresses this and what you are expressing. A true apology can't have that "I didn't punch you as hard as I could have" dynamic to it like you are pointing out. It really takes the sincerity out of the apology.

I think what I mean is that it all reinforces shame in different ways.

 

Sorry for chopping up my response to you. I dont think that someone struggling with deep levels of shame and addiction actually is in that healthy self respecting position. I don't think I have been... I didn't treat myself with value because of toxic shame.

 

What constitutes cheating within the relationship would depend on the boundaries set forth in the relationship. If your spouse considers you jerking off to P as a form of cheating, and you knew this or suspected it, but did it anyway, then you cheated. Sure, it could be considered a different level of cheating, but it's still cheating and you are still a cheater.

I was speaking hypothetically. Do you think if the shoe was on the other foot you would, as a hypothetically healthy self-respecting man, accept that excuse?

 

You've shared that with me before and I'm glad you were able to do the right thing in that time.

 

I think what I mean is that it all reinforces shame in different ways.[/QUOTE]
Maybe all those things reinforce shame mostly because one feels guilty already, because he knows what he did was wrong. I don't think in recent past (like a hundred years or even a few centuries) there was a time when it would be more normalised to ....change partners, divorce, have sex with someone without marriage, have sex with people of the same sex....and watch porn... In a village my grandma lived, everybody knew everything about everyone. Situation when someone who left their marital partner or divorced was looked upon as very unnormal situation. Everybody talking about it and judging. People couldnt do such a thing without being judged by other people. I cannot imagine someone then talking about watching porn. He would be seen as weird at least. Now...it is normal to be divorced, have children without marriage or even talk about watching porn and everyone is OK with it. I had a colleague talk about porn at work, absolutely no shame, just other men nodding and telling their experiences with porn.
I mean, come on, society had much stricter boundaries about what is OK and what is not, than it has now...

 

I guess I think we are on the same page. Yes I lied and cheated, I also have made changes in my life. And am holding myself with value.

Yes, I agree with what you said, I just felt it was worth pointing out that it's not where many find themselves.

 

I don't disagree, but I do think shame still manifests in different ways even if it's being normalized by society.

There's also things that exist now that reinforce shame that didn't exist 100 years ago.

On shame, there's a difference between shame and guilt. Rather than butcher that explanation myself check out Brene Brown.

 

Wanted to add to this psalm, John Delony talks a lot about connection, and how if there's no connection or a lack thereof people find ways of filling that gap. Unfortunately that's what P can be, other addictions as well, or potentially having an affair could have been. Want to tell you how much I respect you for how you put that focus into your children, and made that decision to do the right thing when faced with that.

 

I think it's really interesting how much of a debate disclosure has sparked. I think the general rule of thumb I'd employ is whether you're primarily withholding information because it might piss them off. Is it the sort of thing they'd really rather know about? If so, it's probably right to disclose.

There are limits to it as well though. I've said in here before that I think when people expect you to disclose private thoughts like finding a passing stranger in the street attractive, you've a right to refuse that disclosure. Both parties have the right to set their boundaries and they should be upfront about it. You've got to both be able to tolerate the arrangement.

Something that I think should be taken into account also is that people don't necessarily refuse to disclose out of badness. There's been some discussion of wanting to avoid confrontation and I think people that don't deal well with confrontation are probably less likely to disclose. I think learning to be direct early in a relationship can avoid a lot of problems down the line.

However, there's one thing I'd add, which is that there are some circumstances under which I would refuse to disclose even if it was the right thing to do. I would lie to save my relationship and spare my children separation or divorce. I'm not in that scenario but if push came to shove, I'd deceive my other half to save my children pain. So I can somewhat sympathise with people in the situation where they may be concerned that a disclosure would break up their home. I'm not saying this is morally correct, just that I can understand why people with children might prioritise saving the relationship over honesty.

 

Hi all, some further thoughts on disclosure: The appropriateness and scope of disclosure depends also on the seriousness of the situation and the utility that the disclosure can bring to you and your partner.

Disclosure of a disease
If you are suffering from a disease, such as an addiction, you always have a great interest in disclosing it to your partner and other supportive persons, because your disease estranges you from your partner, causes suffering to the partner, too, and you will definitely need their sympathy and support to heal.

Disclosure of a crime
If you have broken rules set by criminal codes, you obviously have to disclose it fully to authorities, to your partner and to people around you. Because only full acknowledgement of guilt and repentance can ultimately allow you to obtain support and to heal one day.

Disclosure of day-to-day activities between healthy spouses
Here it depends. In case you are not suffering of an addiction that you cannot control, then the level of disclosure will depend on the boundaries agreed in a relationship. These boundaries are not the same for all people and you obviously need to strive for a balance: Everybody human being needs to share personal things with someone AND every human being is entitled to some privacy.

To illustrate the extremes: All dictators of the world, including those that 'run' their company or family in dictator-like manner, have had some childhood traumata that created insecurity in them which they then attempt to 'overcome' by seeking total control over other people. Likewise, men who imposed on their wives to wear a chastity belt at all times or, in modern times, spouses who impose on their partner to share every single chat message, phone passwords, their whereabouts in every minutes of the day and even their thoughts - they are suffering from insecurity that drives a pathological need to control the other, which is insane as it puts the other effectively into slavery. On the other extreme: a spouse who never shares anything about what they do or think and remains completely secretive can obviously never achieve a functioning trustful relationship. - Where is the right midpoint for you?

To drive the reflection further: We talked about disclosing M to P. We can ask also whether simply masturbating (without looking at P) constitutes cheating? For some spouses it clearly already does and needs to be disclosed! For many partners however this sounds like "You married me so now I own your body and your penis, you are no longer supposed to ever touch your penis without us two having mutually agreed it" which feels like having a become slave under the total control of a dictator.

I agree with you folks, just that I would add that each freely consenting adult individual has the right to decide what behaviors should be subject of an explicit agreement. As Real Jerry points out below, you have a right to refuse disclosure. Otherwise, in my view, you would be submitting yourself into a kind of slavery or with other words, you are moving from being a slave to your compulsive behavior towards being a slave to your wife, while ultimately you want to become a person who is having himself control over his life.

That sums it up well to me (emphasis added)

Agree, my wandering mind is indeed already a kind of infidelity (which is by the common to every human being - biologists call it the Coolidge effect). What I would add here is that some wives are pretty cool about their husbands having such thoughts, they do not worry about it and do not insist to know, because they are themselves very confident, well-grounded persons. Other wives are driven crazy even by their husbands thoughts or looks, because they are themselves very insecure, traumatized beings who crave for a rock-solid, perfect, angel-like man as a remedy for their own insecurity.

Yep, ultimately you need assess the utility and impact of disclosing. There is no black and white rule and in which ever way you decide, it may have some serious downsides.