I don't. I chose to PMO since my young age (I insist on that, I take full responsibility) even if I knew it was a sin, and because of that I failed to become the man I wanted to be since my childhood and failed in life. How can I love myself? I regret all these years of PMO, weakness and emptiness, and whish I could return back in time. As long as this feeling exists, I just can't love myself. I will if I manage to do something great that will make me forget about this feeling. (Sorry for my english, not a native speaker.)
Melancholy, Just some thoughts on what you've posted and on the discussion so far. I think self-love is actually the most important thing that we need not only to combat addictions and to keep them away, but also to grow as a person in all ways, mental, physical, emotional, and most importantly spiritually. Self-love isn't giving in to whatever you fancy in the heat of the moment, or even partaking in pleasurable activities for the sake of pleasure alone. Self-love should instead be stated as "wanting the best for yourself". So that means staying away from things that you know are bad for you, and pursuing things that are right and wholesome for you. Like exercise to keep the body functioning, eating the right foods, developing our minds through reading, and of course growing in relationship with God. But self-love goes beyond that as well, to encompass self-compassion as well (go google it, or watch the TED Talk on youtube about this - it was really helpful). Self-compassion is, I believe, about self-acceptance and providing a safe environment to grow in. A lot of our self-talk these days is very negative, and I can imagine that a lot of the things we say to ourselves, we won't use on other people - it's just too hurtful. Negative self-talk and calling yourself a failure all the time is useful as a motivational tool just about the same way that beating up a kid to improve his grades is - it may create fear and improvement in the short term, but really what it does is damage the self over the long term. So not very self-loving. If, instead, you can sit down, look yourself in the mirror, and start to accept yourself as who you are - flawed, but a work in progress - and be comfortable with that, then you give yourself the safe space to grow. Again, it's not about saying "yeah I'm all good now, don't need to do anything anymore", but a way of saying "it's okay, this is me right now, and I'm nowhere near perfect, but I'll work on getting there". I think also that, if we're focused on the negative all the time, and that's all we see, then of course that's all we think our life is all about. And we see other people with apparently perfect lives on facebook, in the media etc. and we either think to ourselves "shit life is unfair" or "I'll only be happy if I had that". But a lot of what we see and what we have as ideals in our heads aren't realistic. We don't see the bad parts of other people's lives on facebook etc, and we need to realise that life is about downs as much as it is about the ups, that we need both in order to fully experience what it is like to be human. So enjoying your own journey, celebrating the good, is also important. Something that helps is gratitude practice - take a few minutes at the end of the day to write down something that was good that happened to you, and try to fall asleep holding onto that memory, and the next morning as you wakr, try and remember what you were holding on to. That helps to wire your brain into a more positive state, using the subconscious. Finally about your relationship with God. It seems a little like you're still trying to do good because "it's the right thing to do", and I guess if you don't, you'll end up beating yourself up. Though you say you aren't trying to "earn" your way into heaven, it still sounds that way, or that you're trying to "please God" by doing what He commands. But I feel that that kind of outlook is not feeding our relationship with God, but our own sense of self-esteem - it's like saying "see, God? I'm doing pretty well, huh" and then smirking about it. Which feeds and inflates our own self-esteem, and could lead to pride. Doing the right thing shouldn't stem from trying to perform, perfect and please, but needs to grow deeper, as a response to the love of God. It's kinda like a child writing a card to his parents - it comes as a response to their love and care, and not from any desire to please them in order to gain love, or to boost their own self-esteem. We should WANT to do good, not feel OBLIGATED to do it. I think a lot of Christians start out at the obligation phase, but don't grow deep enough in their relationship with God to move into the "good works for the sake of good works alone" phase, which is something I still struggle with as well. Gosh that turned out longer than I expected. But a lot of what you're saying, I'm also struggling with, and it really resonates with my own personal journey. Hope this helps a little with yours
Finalfight123, Just a few thoughts on your last post as well. First, it's not said that civilisation will collapse if we don't follow the ten commandments. The ten commandments were given to the Israelites basically at a time where they were just freed from the yoke of slavery, free, but lost as well - they had nothing to guide them, nowhere to call their home. So the ten commandments were a sort of "moral compass" to guide them through the wilderness of the world but also of the heart. Genocide = mass murder, rape = coveting your neighbour's wife (and going way further than that), and adultery. The first 4 aren't really about fearing someone you love, but more of reminding us of our creator and his place above us - again, these were lost people who didn't really believe in anything at this point. So we can't really take the commandments and transplant them into the modern context without some reinterpretation. Spirit of the law rather than the letter, and all that. The "updated, concise" version is what Jesus gave us, which is "Love the Lord God with all your heart and with all your mind and with all your soul; and love your neighbour as yourself", which basically that LOVE, rather than any sort of forceful command, should be the overarching idea of Christianity and how Christians relate to the world - which is something a lot of Christians forget in their zealous fervour and their fire and brimstone stuff. And I think that's why a lot of people misunderstand Christianity. Of course, people don't generally think of abusing themselves as a good way of loving yourself (though we do it subconsciously a lot), so in that case beating up your wife or kid is a no-no. Melancholy's quote doesn't say the "chosen" will go to heaven, but rather, the "righteous" - basically people who choose to not do the evil stuff mentioned in that passage. Since you brought it up, it's commonly understood that being gay is NOT a sin - but ACTING on it, choosing to indulge in it, to live that lifesyle, perform those kinds of acts etc. is what makes the sin. Controversial, I know, so we'll not dwell on it. Jesus didn't die just to "take away our sin" - honestly he didn't have to. God could have just said "yup, all's good" and that would have been that. But of course that wouldn't have led to any sort of soul-searching, or true repentance for the wrong we commit in our lives. Honestly I think Jesus came to show us what God envisioned Humanity to be - compassionate, loving, forgiving, not giving in to temptations etc. - imagine if the whole world was like him - what a beautiful world that would be. So 2 things he did - kickstart some soul searching and show us the way to the Father through his life. What we do with our lives, the sins we commit, of course they're still ours. Jesus doesn't give us a free pass - if we choose to reject him and live an immoral life, we're still going to hell. But he shows us what's the right way to do things, and we can be confident that even if we don't meet his ridiculously high standards, if we fall along the way, we can pick ourselves up and carry on and He'll still love us. Which was a radical departure from what came before (during the time of the Pharisees after Moses and the 10 commandments), which basically said "screw up and you're dead". I'd take the burning bush with a pinch of salt (yes, the Bible isn't straightforward truth - a lot of the Old Testament is quite metaphorical), although it's not beyond the realms of possibility. The other 2, I guess that's where faith comes in
Couple of things on this too. First, you're ABSOLUTELY RIGHT that it is WE who need to do the work. As I said earlier, Jesus isn't a free pass, and Christians who believe that he is aren't really good Christians at all. We still strive to do good, and when we falter, we pick ourselves up and carry on - the same way Jesus did - he fell 3 times (or more - but Catholic tradition says 3) on the road to his crucifixion, but each time he picked himself up to carry on. Sin isn't created by the Church - sin is going against the innate idea of what is "right". The church tries to put that into "rules" sometimes, but because the church is a human institution (and so many people want to set up their own, it seems), the interpretation of the Divine is most often skewed by human perception or prejudice. But go with what your conscience tells you, and well you can't really go wrong. Of course, your conscience sometimes is just temptation dressed in rational thought (like the rationalisations we get before succumbing to the next relapse), so it's tricky trying to go it alone. That's why people join churches and form Christian communities. I don't know about wanting the world to end, but I sure as hell don't want it to. Don't go believing that all those doimsday prophets who pretend to know when the world is ending are representative of all Christians - I believe that they're really just a small group of rather misguided Christians who don't really understand the heart of Christianity. In all honesty, as Christians we SHOULDN'T know when the world will end, because it will come "like a thief in the night", to quote Jesus. So then what should we do? Jesus says again to "keep watch", which basically means be good, so that when the time really comes, you'll be ready. And that means that we should try to do good all the time, and live good lives, and make the world a better place. You're not dead probably because God isn't a petty being who delights in striking people down. As I said in my earlier post, God is really about LOVE. So he probably just shook his head and gave you a wry smile. And yep, a lot of the people in Jesus' time didn't accept what he said and what people said of him - the early church was basically hunted down and almost exterminated. Bit somehow it grew and grew and grew. Divine guidance? Human persistence? A bit of both? Again, up to you to decide
I don't know where I'm going AllTheRage. Lol. My only point is we should try our absolute best to follow Jesus and his example. Nothing more. I think fundamentally I need more faith in the power of Jesus sacrifice. You really know your bible man, I tip my hat to you. You too Peregrinnus. Thank you for your response Peregrinnus. I guess the main thing I struggle with is the fact that 90% of my pain is self inflicted. It's easier for people who are truly victims of something to be positive I think. That way you are absolved of responsibility and can just learn to deal with it. When it's self inflicted, it feels wrong to be happy. It feels wrong to love yourself. Because you are victimizing yourself via your actions. It's about as difficult as forgiving and loving the person who murdered your family. It just feels...wrong. Though I know biblically that actually would be the right thing to do. As for the motivation behind pleasing God... I think a big part of it is my love for Him. Though I would be lying if I didn't say it was a little for pride.
I'd recommend you to read the book "Daring Greatly" by Brene Brown, especially the chapters on shame and shame resilience. Them al also quite a few good points on how our worldviews shape our beliefs and or actions and responses to shame, which I believe will help you out immensely. There are more than 2 types of people in the world, not just strong people and victims - personally I don't think that that's a very healthy way to look at the world
Oh and one more thing Try thinking about how holding a grudge can hurt the person who's holding it more than the person that you have a grudge against. We let that wound fester in our hearts, we feed it and nurture it with the good parts of our soul, and in return it slowly eats us up from the inside and destroys as as people. I remember at a recent spiritual retreat I went to, the retreat's spiritual director showed us this video about a mother whose teenage son was shot dead by another guy. She couldn't forgive the guy for years, but that completely ruined her life in all ways. Then she decided to visit the guy in prison and forgave him, and not only was the guy overcome by it, she also turned her own life around. And after the guy was released, he moved in next door to her and started helping her out, becoming almost like another son to her. I'm not saying it's gonna be easy - of course it isn't. That's why Jesus had to command us to love one another, why he had to show us the way. Because if it were that easy we'd had done it all by ourselves. We all struggle with it, to varying degrees of success, and that's PERFECTLY ALRIGHT. We're all imperfect humans struggling in an imperfect world. Sometimes we feel that the other person (or our own self) doesn't DESERVE forgiveness, but then again, we were all sinners still when Jesus chose to forgive us ("forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do"). We didn't deserve it, but we got it anyway. Keep struggling with this, Melancholy. It's the struggle that reminds us of our humanity, but also gives us hope that we can, in certain moments, transcend it to become Divine.
Exatctly. Took the words right out of my mouth. I suppose my goal moving forward is to try and be content in the present, while always looking to improve in the future. Interesting, I'll have to check out that book. It calls the mind the saying "Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgement that something else is more important than fear." I never said there were just two types of people. My point was that being positive is easier when the struggle is external rather then internal.
l know you didn't But it kinda felt that way for a bit. l stand corrected On a side note about internal vs external struggles, I think that the ease with which we can "push the blame onto others" in an external struggle actually impairs our ability to do anything meaningful about it. Because once we make a struggle about someone or something else (like external circumstances), then we are basically giving up control of our lives to that external thing, saying to it "you did this, you caused me to be this way, there's nothing I can do". The same with saying stuff like "I'm just made that way". Once we cede responsibility, we are powerless. But if we turn an external struggle from "it's not my fault" to "what can I do or be in order to change this" then we can move beyond just forcing ourselves to feel positive and hope one day someone or something will change, and move into the realm of being able to act proactively to change our situation.
True, that's a good point. There is always something we can do to improve our situation. Man, I don't know anymore. This is gonna take more then a couple of days to overcome, but I will try. It's an overwhelming task to try to reshape my entire thinking.
Rising up from my fall I just had my PMO few hours back.I had a good week before that.But too much of sex talks and curiosity got the better of me for past two days.I have reset my counter and hope for a strong recovery
Peregrinnus I think your a good guy and I would argue with you not because I don't like you and not even because of my feeling that I have for religion. But because you seem like a formidable debater. And that at the end of the day I'd still go for a beer with you. But in light of alltheragebackhome I'm not sure if now is the time. His arguments somehow weren't as sound as yours i'm afraid. But if we do argue we are arguing about faith not our characters. But I'm afraid alltherage took it that way its to bad. Ah maybe I'll write some stuff down next week not out of anger or being right but a diffrent perspective because no to people see the same out of the same telescope. Good night
Very interesting post here goes from the happiness debate to a complete religious debate. I am a believer in God no specific religion but have a strong background in both Catholicism and atheism. Finalfight I completely understand your view being a past atheist myself. As with the rest of you. Our spiritual paths or belief are very sacred so let's not bring Ego into this with personal insults. 2nd let's not quote every thing from bible as gospel (no pun intended) the bible has been translated many times and some things are not to be taken literally. . OK Finalfight you are correct you can't provide any evidence for God. Hence it's called faith. But we can and have provided benefits of faith in people's lives. The opposing argument is faith can cause harm in lives. So has lack of religious morals. This debate is endless. So all we will do here in this thread is end in upsetting others boosting or harming people's egos. So continue reading, researching and finding what makes you happy. In the end that's all we have. Life is to short not to enjoy it. We are all here because we are dissatisfied with PMO in our lives. Addiction does feed off unhappiness. The rest is habit forming, awareness and belief that we will get through this. I recommend these books: the super brain - deepak copra Power of now - eckhart tolle Slight Edge - Jeff Olson The happiness advantage - Shawn achor breaking the cycle - George Collins MA The brain that changes itself - Norman doidge Power of habit - Charles duhigg
Thanks for the compliment, Finalfight123 I'm all for the beer. Haha. And new perspectives. Alternative perspectives are always necessary if we're to grow and expand our own worldviews
We all have negative aspects of us, we also have positive aspects. The problem is that if you believe something you will subconsciously dismiss all information that doesn't fit that belief. If 100 people told you you were a great guy, and one person said something negative you would hear that one comment and completely ignore the 100 - we all do it. People say "seeing is believing", but in fact "believing is seeing". Stop yourself for once in your life, and actually pay attention to what is actually true, rather that the blickered distorted view that fits your inner beliefs. Until you challenge them you won't grow, but as soon as you do you will see yourself the way others do - how many people do you know who you think of as negatively as you do yourself? none? really? interesting isn't it!
Melancholy, Jesus died to make it very simple for us to enter heaven. We simply have to believe he died for our sins and to ask forgiveness for our sins. Every sin deserves death. Before Jesus, they would sacrifice animals, lambs, and offer "burnt offerings" to the temple for forgiveness from God. Jesus came and died so we no longer have to do that. He made a new covenant with us, effectively abolished the 10 commandments and made a new set of commandments that encapsulate the previous ten. I can back it all up in scripture if someone wants to challenge me. It's important to remember the Old Testament was for the Jews, escaping persecution, trying to stay pure and protect the bloodline for the Redeemer to come. Jesus came, fulfilled the prophecies and has allowed us Gentiles to also be saved. Christians must follow the new testament and hang on to very word spoken in that. Do not mix the opposing views in the old and new testaments, they were written in different times for different people under different circumstances. I hope AllTheRage was not banned for anything he said in this thread because that is shocking.
Good points. No where did I contradict them. I believe all of that. I never quoted the old testament. My only point is that if we willingly sin continuously, there is condemnation awaiting us. We have to be truly sorry and do everything we can to cease the sin. That's repentance. Unrepentant sin is the true failing.
Oh totally agree. It's most important what is in your heart, you can't fake that. Sorry just skim read the thread and wanted the info out there so apologies if none is directed at you mate
No problem I ain't mad. Lol. Having a pure heart is so important. I feel PMO really messes with your heart. Corrupts it. What happened to AllTheRage? He's banned?
