France -> Je suis Charlie all over again?

Discussion in 'Off-topic Discussion' started by Deleted Account, Jul 15, 2016.

  1. Guns don't kill people people kill people.
     
  2. Jodo Kus

    Jodo Kus Fapstronaut

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    I don't understand. What does that slogan even mean? Please explain it to me.
     
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  3. Passing more gun control laws won't stop people from killing each other. Now I don't want to get into an argument let's be civil. Take a look at these mass shootings. They still happen in "gun free zones". Like that one in Oregon. Or the more recent movie theater attack in Germany. Also let's look at England. They took the guns away and they are dealing with high violence. What's next? We're gonna ban knives? Sorry for the rant.
     
  4. Owari

    Owari Fapstronaut

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    As you do mention Christian ethics (a basis of most western laws) Christian and Islamic ethics aren't as different as it seems (at least in my opinion), and it's more of secularism. Yes people will be in the middle stuck between the western and eastern worlds and this is an issue that needs to be addressed. It's okay to integrate but at the same time there needs to be mutual respect. A muslim shouldn't look down on a European for wearing short clothes and a European shouldn't look down on a muslim for wearing Hijab or Niqab. As well as that, if a Muslim wants to become "westernized" that's with themselves, just like if a European was to do something like convert to Islam (though adapting a religion vs. values is different in a way). Naturally because of differences it will be hard for people to integrate as you said.
     
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  5. 1. As you do mention Christian ethics (a basis of most western laws) Christian and Islamic ethics aren't as different as it seems (at least in my opinion)

    A. Aren't they? So how about Sharia? Koran etc?

    B. How about the tax from unbelievers.

    C. You are just distorting the details... (lying to the unbelievers like in Koran?)

    2. and it's more of secularism.

    Do you know that originally secularism was meant for Christianity & Judaism in Europe after 30 years War?

    3. It's okay to integrate but at the same time there needs to be mutual respect. A muslim shouldn't look down on a European for wearing short clothes and a European shouldn't look down on a muslim for wearing Hijab or Niqab. As well as that, if a Muslim wants to become "westernized" that's with themselves, just like if a European was to do something like convert to Islam (though adapting a religion vs. values is different in a way).

    I am sorry man, again WE ARE NOT USA. WE ARE NOT MELTING POT. We are separate nations.

    If you come here, adapt or leave for the 60 muslim countries.

    Our task is to keep our culture not embrace yours. You can embrace your culture in the muslim countries and all over the Middle East.

    4. Imagine, we would build a Church or Synagog in Saudi Arabia or in Iran or in Afganistan.

    You see, you cannot preach tolerance here to the Muslims When Christians are being hunted all across the Middle East. (source: Prageru Channel, youtube).

    It doesn't work that way.

    Christianity is the most oppressed religious minority there over the last 10 years.

    It is pretty shameless to speak about tolerance, when you have nothing to back it up.

    Europe took hundreds of thousands of refugees. They had a great change to adapt into society and instead of doing it, they wasted it completely.

    //

    On the other hand, if you compare their adaptation to the adaptation of the Asians (Chinese and Japanese) in the USA, it was the most successful one in the history.

    //

    Again, preach tolerance but always start from yourself. You cannot demand it from someone, before you give it.
     
  6. Owari

    Owari Fapstronaut

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    Christian and Islamic ethics are similar in a number of ways actually:
    -Both believe in one god, and the same god
    -In both adultery is prohibited
    -In both murder is prohibited
    -In both Incest is prohibited
    -In both stealing is prohitibed
    -Islamic ethics are nearly (if not) identical to the Ten Commandments

    And many others (just read the Quran, not the stuff off of WikiIslam). As for Sharia, this is a different thing entirely (laws rather than ethics). And for the Jizya, keep in mind that in exchange for the Jizya, non-Muslims were exempt from military service and granted special protection. As well as that, some peopke are exempt from paying Jizya such as the elderly, sick, or poor. Jizya was a non-Muslim form of Zakat, and Zakat was a mandatory tax that Muslims had to pay (Zakat or charity is one of the five pillars).

    Again, some muslims have to go to Europe because of the situation in other muslim countries. In fact, some Syrians fled to Iraq from the Civil War, and look at the situation. Other countries will not take them, and others have a barely improved situation.

    Also, it's important to note that Saudi Arabia follows extreme Salafism, and Iran actually has a few hundred churches. Despite that, yes like I said tolerance is key on both sides, though Christian minorites have actually been way better off than Bahais in the Middle East. Europe isn't a melting pot but at the same time it isn't like Europe will become "an Islamic state" as some people try to claim. Also, Asian immigrants adapted well because any different values they have (because Asian values aren't universal) aren't as drastically different. Also, Asians have still been able to keep their culture in both the USA and other places like Europe (i.e. Chinese restaurants, Chinatowns, etc.).
     
  7. @Owari

    1. Christian and Islamic ethics are similar in a number of ways actually:

    A. -Both believe in one god, and the same God

    No they do not.

    Islam does not believe that Jesus is a son of God (part of holy trinity) but rather a prophet.

    (What you are trying to say that you believe in the same Father of the Trinity. What you fail to understand that, if you read the New Testament after the Old Testament, that Jesus is indeed God. No worries, I know that Muslims are very proud on their Monotheism)

    B. -In both adultery is prohibited

    That is not exactly correct.

    In Christianity and Judaism, you have the commandments:

    you shall not commit adultery.

    Meaning, that you will commit a sin, if you will commit adultery.

    (get away from your God)

    If people caught a woman who committed adultery and brought her to Jesus asking what should they do with her. Based on Old Testament, you have there, that the woman should be stoned to death.

    Jesus said " Whoever is without sin should cast the first stone"

    In the same situation with Mohamed, he asked about what is in the holy book and they said, she should be stoned.

    So they stoned her.

    That is the difference between Christianity and Islam.

    C. -In both stealing is prohibited

    Maybe go to Egypt for holiday and you will see how it goes for you there...

    D. -Islamic ethics are nearly (if not) identical to the Ten Commandments

    There is nothing like 10 Commandments in Islam...

    2. And for the Jizya, keep in mind that in exchange for the Jizya, non-Muslims were exempt from military service and granted special protection.

    So read about Janissaries in the Ottoman Army.

    Sons of Christians Families in Balkan were forced to Convert to Islam were forced to fight in Ottoman Armies..

    Jizya is simply a tax, you have to pay because you are not a Muslim...

    3. Again, some muslims have to go to Europe because of the situation in other muslim countries.

    How about stay in Syria, create army and and take the country back.

    This is what the men from my family have done in the UK during WW2.

    What I can see on those boats are full of military-aged men... What will happen to their Wives, Sisters and their kids back in Syria?

    Men should be there primarily for protection of their families. Who will protect those left behind? The Kurds, The Yazidis?

    4. Despite that, yes like I said tolerance is key on both sides, though Christian minorites have actually been way better off than Bahais in the Middle East.

    Maybe tell this to the Copts in Egypt... They made their experience with Islam... Major Parts of Asia Minor used to be Christian...

    Where are they now?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 20, 2016
  8. Owari

    Owari Fapstronaut

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    The God in Islam and Christianity are the same, however what you bring up are different views of who God is and who figures are (and yes I'm already aware of the differences in the views of Jesus). Christianity holds the view that Jesus is God and the Son of God, while Islam holds that Jesus is a prophet. What is being forgotten is that Islam holds that the Bible and Torah (New and Old Testaments) were corrupted and the belief of Jesus being the son of God is a result of its corruption.

    "And come not near to unlawful sexual intercourse. Verily, it is a faahishah (a great sin) and an evil way." (Sura Al-Israa # 17 ayah # 32)
    Jesus forgave the woman in front of the pharisees because he was the Messiah. But it is still a grave sin:

    9 When the accusers heard this, they slipped away one by one, beginning with the oldest, until only Jesus was left in the middle of the crowd with the woman. 10 Then Jesus stood up again and said to the woman, “Where are your accusers? Didn’t even one of them condemn you?”

    11 “No, Lord,” she said.

    And Jesus said, “Neither do I. Go and sin no more.”

    Stealing has been singled out as Haram and ironically if you go to Salafi Saudi Arabia you can get your hand cut off. If you want to use Egyptian theives as a counter then read about the Lord's Resistance Army.

    Many verses exist regarding things that are also in the Commandments with the exception of Sabbath (though the Quran talks about Friday prayers which are similar to Sabbath) and talking about God's name in vain (this has been debated in Islam).

    The Ottomans aren't a good or true example of Islam- keep in mind this is the same "Caliphate" that carried out the Armenian genocide.

    Actually sizable Christian communities exist in Lebanon as well and they have been well off even under Hezbollah. On the contrary Bahais have been persecuted almost everywhere. Turkish Christian populations fell for most reasons other than persecution, with the difference of the Armenian Genocide (which I mentioned).
     
  9. Jodo Kus

    Jodo Kus Fapstronaut

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    @tyler007 @Owari
    it seems to me there's no real debate here. I see only far apart standpoints and a discussion which is much too general and results in a bashing. Nobody serves from this.
    I don't say that you don't have some good points and you certainly both have knowledge but I see only a bashing going on here. Everybody has his own opinion and that's his/her right, but when ýou just pick pieces out of the history of humanity to prove your point, I see no point in it at all.

    And rereading only the last post before mine[EDIT: that of Tyler, Owari posted meanwhile], I must say I'm feeling sad about what arguments are uses. Let me just give one example:
    So this is judging about people that are fleeing out of a country that in a disastrous state after years of civil war, with half of the world involved. On the flight many of them are dying. Why mainly young men? I don't know. Probably because they can run longer.
    So my point here is, you can have your opinion. Maybe you're concerned about the refugees, maybe you fear them. It seems you like Christianity more than Islam and you probably want the politic of European countries changed. But why do you bring out such an argument? Even without sympathy for the refugees it's just a ridiculous argument. They're refugees! Some of them have fought in the conflict, others have tried to survive. But what would you propose? On which side should they fight? For the regime? For Al-Nusrat-front? For IS? For one of the rebel groups? Or for a mercenary group from abroad?
    SORRY FOR THE RANT

    Actually I wanted to propose to look for some common ground. Or maybe get back to the original topic..
     
  10. @Jodo Kus

    "Even without sympathy for the refugees it's just a ridiculous argument. They're refugees! Some of them have fought in the conflict, others have tried to survive."

    Definition of refugee vs economic migrant:

    Refugee: Someone running from war staying in the first safe country

    Economic Migrant: someone running all accross the Europe to get to the country where he can get the most benefits.

    The rest of your argument stands and fall with that differentiation.

    (
    Suggestions:

    1. Concentrate on what does good instead of what feels good.

    2. It is terrible idea to take the refugees when your domestic population start to get slaughtered.

    3. The best solutions are those which work for both sides.

    (You can see turn to the political right all around the world which is direct consequence of the progressive policies)
    )

    @Owari

    1. Lebanon used to be Christian. They took the refugees from Palestine... which brought them to the verge of the civil war...

    A. What I see in your argumentation is Muslim, who is trying to defend Islam...

    (hard situation indeed and very sensitive topic)

    B. Christianity is not asking for world domination, as Islam is.

    C. Islam is based on spreading the faith in general and keeping it.

    D. That is why Muslims are killing apostates.

    E. That is why Kafirs are being treated like third class citizens.

    F. That is why women are being treated like third class citizens.

    G. Because, if you cannot control people there is a chance that they leave.

    2. Which nation is a good example of Islam?

    A. We are getting lot of negative examples. (and I am sorry for that)

    B. Give me 3 positive examples of the existing states which are real symbol of Islam working society.

    3. About the 10 Commandments: What you are doing is: trying to link passages from Koran to the actual 10 commandments...

    A. Problem with that topic is that is is not entirely accurate.

    Reason: If you have conflicting verses in Koran, the one written later applies.

    @Owari

    I want to thank you because communication can be a first step to mutual understanding.

    P.S. Couple of weeks ago, I have come across this video:

    Why Muslim Dr Nabeel Qureshi Converted to Christianity on youtube.

    (I am not trying to convert you, rather to give you perspective on both religions from from grand- son of muslim missionaries)

    Take care.
     
    Owari likes this.
  11. 1. All EU countries should take about the same amount of refugees, or not?

    European States are not the next countries.

    2. ...get slaughtered?!? ah ok you're speaking about the terror attack. Maybe we can agree that the migrants in it's whole don't come here to slaughter us?

    A. So how do you distinguish between terrorists and ordinary people when nobody has papers? I do not think that we can... :-(

    (Imagine that you would have 100 delicious chewing gums and 1 would be poisoned. Would you really take some?)

    B. There is no way to do that... (I have even heard that if refugee does not get Asylum, he will throw away papers and start all over again... or stay illegally)

    3. how do you think the refugee situation could be handled? Where would the refugees be?

    Constructive Question, I believe that the best would be:

    (and it should be done long time ago)

    0. Place embargo on Syria and ban Weapon Imports. Ensure that their borders will be protected so that nobody is able to bring anything in or out.

    A. Start dialogue with Asad.

    B. Agree to create demilitarized safe Zone/Zones in Syria. Use international contingents to protect the safe zone and provide food and basic needs.

    (definitely useful for all those abandoned women and children)

    C. Agree with Asad on free election after the war.

    D. Destroy ISIS and Al-Kaida so that the terrorists groups are history.

    E. Do regional elections in the regions of Syria.

    F. Bring those people together and discuss the future of Syria. Ask them for an agreement and then have that agreement approved by the referendum.

    (Note that Syria is not a National State like most states in Europe but rather different peoples with different cultural and ethnic origin)

    H. The war caused that these groups became enemies.

    I. I think that it may be necessary to split Syria into several states or independent regions.

    J. Explain the people why the foreign soldiers have to stay in the country for time being. (you need to keep them there to maintain stability)

    K. Gradually teach the Syrians to rely on themselves and after Syrians will be self-sustaining, move the troops out... (or make a base there)

    (Basically the idea is similar to the one as it happened in Western Germany (Rammstein) or South Korea)

    L. Make a peace between Syria and Israel and start to use their technology to build up the country.

    M. Priority should be food production, goods production and definitely ways to bring investors into the country.

    (they have beautiful beaches for example...)

    The idea is to get the economy up and running again.

    N. Do not hurry. It may be necessary to keep the troops there for decade/decades or even longer.
    //

    I am not saying that this has to be done just by the West. I think that Russia, China and other countries should be involved.

    //

    The problem with the immigration goes deeper.

    I mean in Syria those people could be much more useful.

    But if you see that 30% of Refugees is illiterate, I cannot imagine how they will flourish in countries with highly educated workforce like the one in Europe...

    And We can see what happens when those people do not flourish... :-(
     
  12. Owari

    Owari Fapstronaut

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    Though we disagree I appreciate the chance to exchange ideas. :) I'm actually a Christian but to sum it all up I'm defending Islam because to me at least your views of Islam are somewhat skewed and Islam is a beautiful and great religion that is largely misrepresented.

    I really appreciate you deciding to share your views on the world because politics and the like is a sensitive subject and regardless of your views someone will always disagree (in this case me ;) ), so you must have the courage and logic to back up your views. Despite our debate of sorts I think everyone here including you and I can agree that this was a horrible event that needs to be solved. :( (cheesy warning :p)
     
  13. Jodo Kus

    Jodo Kus Fapstronaut

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