Porn, morality and Religion

[dragonslayer]

What I am trying to say in this post, is that how religion and sense of morality affect us in our nofap quest?

Is porn and masturbation immoral? It is definitely according to many religions. But what about the atheists and non-believers. What would be their take on this?

I have noticed that the religious people are less prone to fall to porn addiction because on top of their rational mind which says that porn is bad for the body and mind, there is an extra layer of protection by the religious faith, that porn and masturbation is a sin.

So, if I compare two modern people, one atheist, and another theist, the theist has much more chance of overcoming their addiction and less prone to fall into it. Now, I am not saying that there can be no exceptions, but this seems like a general scenario.

Also, do atheists oppose the porn industry? If we somehow remove the human trafficking into pornography, will it be moral as a society to allow porn industries to flourish? That will definitely not the case in a religious society, as most will oppose it. So from a nofap perspective, isn't religion and religious faith has an edge here in keeping our society porn free and healthy.

 

[Plutonium]

Is porn and masturbation immoral? It is definitely according to many religions. But what about the atheists and non-believers. What would be their take on this?

I will ignore your ridiculous advocacy for religion based on its supposed superiority in dealing with PMO problems and simply attempt to answer your question as an agnostic. I will modify your question slightly to - "Is watching porn and masturbation immoral?"

To do so I will try to apply the same reasoning CS Lewis adopted for his Mere Christianity book. His first two observations, which I fully agree with, are that 1) humans have an innate sense of a moral code or natural human law which informs them of right and wrong and 2) they don't always follow this law in their actual day to day conduct. He goes on to explain that where people do not obey the moral code, they are almost always eager to provide a justification for not having done so in that one particular case.

From this starting point I would simply observe that most (though not all) people would not willingly admit to either watching porn or masturbation. There is a sense of shame attached to each, and I believe that shame originates from our innate moral code, rather than society. I would thus conclude that both activities are immoral.

By way of comparison most men would not feel a same sense of shame if talking about having a sex life with their wife or regular girlfriend.

 

[Byris]

I'm agnostic, leaning towards theism more than atheism, I think it's immoral because it hurts you. I think you owe it to yourself to be the best you can. I'm also against the porn industry because it fucks up a lot of young people, should it be illegal, idk. But I don't think it's beneficial to us, kind of the whole dilemma of what's the best vs letting people do what they want. If you stick through nofap cause of religion then I think that's great, end of the day what matters is the results you have, if religion made you achieve them when no one else could, then it's a positive force in your life in my opinion.

 

[Plutonium]

I'm also against the porn industry because it fucks up a lot of young people, should it be illegal, idk.

That's easy - no. The law should only be used against crimes, not vices. Otherwise you head straight down the totalitarian path trying to enforce - through the threat and use of violence - one interpretation of morality.

 

[Byris]

That's easy - no. The law should only be used against crimes, not vices. Otherwise you head straight down the totalitarian path trying to enforce - through the threat and use of violence - one interpretation of morality.

So are hard drugs crimes or vices?

 

[Plutonium]

So are hard drugs crimes or vices?

I personally believe selling and consuming hard drugs are vices, unless children are involved in which case they become crimes.

 

[Byris]

I personally believe selling and consuming hard drugs are vices, unless children are involved in which case they become crimes.

Well what happens when you live in a country with "free" healthcare and people have to pay for your healthcare when you go into cardiac arrest or whatever can happen to you when you abuse drugs? Not really fair to them to be paying for your vices.

 

[dragonslayer]

I will ignore your ridiculous advocacy for religion based on its supposed superiority in dealing with PMO problems and simply attempt to answer your question as an agnostic. I will modify your question slightly to - "Is watching porn and masturbation immoral?"

To do so I will try to apply the same reasoning CS Lewis adopted for his Mere Christianity book. His first two observations, which I fully agree with, are that 1) humans have an innate sense of a moral code or natural human law which informs them of right and wrong and 2) they don't always follow this law in their actual day to day conduct. He goes on to explain that where people do not obey the moral code, they are almost always eager to provide a justification for not having done so in that one particular case.

From this starting point I would simply observe that most (though not all) people would not willingly admit to either watching porn or masturbation. There is a sense of shame attached to each, and I believe that shame originates from our innate moral code, rather than society. I would thus conclude that both activities are immoral.

By way of comparison most men would not feel a same sense of shame if talking about having a sex life with their wife or regular girlfriend.

I am not advocating for anything. Just trying to compare the approach of a theist and atheist towards nofap and also what are the pros and cons to that. In the end, we have the same goal. How we reach there, is less important than the goal itself.

Coming to your idea of shame, Do you feel shame when actually masturbating or watching porn. Isn't the guilt associated with watching porn induced into us through our society? For example, it would be shameful for a couple to kiss in public in some countries while not in others, simply because of the society. So, would you say the act of kissing itself is moral in one case and immoral in another?

My point about this post was the difference in moral attitude towards porn and masturbation, by a theist and an atheist. Do they both consider porn as evil? Isn't an atheist more prone to rationalize the usage of porn and masturbation in a regulated and controlled manner and more prone to relapsing, that is my doubt and fear.

 

[Plutonium]

Well what happens when you live in a country with "free" healthcare and people have to pay for your healthcare when you go into cardiac arrest or whatever can happen to you when you abuse drugs? Not really fair to them to be paying for your vices.

That's just one more argument against "free" healthcare. One of many...

Do you think kidnapping someone and throwing them into a metal cage for simply putting a substance you don't like into their body is fair?

 

[Byris]

That's just one more argument against "free" healthcare. One of many...

Do you think kidnapping someone and throwing them into a metal cage for simply putting a substance you don't like into their body is fair?

No, not really, but I don't think it's as cut and dry as you previously put it. There are some things that people have to be restricted from for society to work. Which is why I said I don't know, dilemma of what would probably be the best vs personal freedom. The fact is it's too easy for kids to be able to get into porn sites and see all sorts of shit that they aren't ready for, that's what happened to me, so I wouldn't want it to remain the way it is. I'd rather have it be illegal than what we have right now. If they found a way that only adults could access it, I wouldn't be against it as much, even if it is fucking with a lot of adults too, and they'd probably be better off if they never came in contact with, but they're adults and it's their choice.

 

[Buzz Lightyear]

Well what happens when you live in a country with "free" healthcare and people have to pay for your healthcare when you go into cardiac arrest or whatever can happen to you when you abuse drugs? Not really fair to them to be paying for your vices.

I'd imagine this is one reason that Plutonium would be in favor of dismantling the state [or at least the health service].

What an appropriate avatar.

 

[Plutonium]

Coming to your idea of shame, Do you feel shame when actually masturbating or watching porn. Isn't the guilt associated with watching porn induced into us through our society?

The shame comes afterwards, not during. I don't think it originates from society - which is just a collection of individuals at the end of the day - but from our innate moral code.

For example, it would be shameful for a couple to kiss in public in some countries while not in others, simply because of the society. So, would you say the act of kissing itself is moral in one case and immoral in another?

There is a difference between inherent shame a person feels and an imposed societal convention.

Kissing is not inherently shameful, but if public kissing is against convention in a particular country then social opprobrium can be attached to that.

 

[Buzz Lightyear]

That's just one more argument against "free" healthcare. One of many...
Do you think kidnapping someone and throwing them into a metal cage for simply putting a substance you don't like into their body is fair?

And then there is the metal [mental] cage of the mind, where common sense is sacrificed to an idea.

 

[streve]

I'm also against the porn industry because it's really very damage our youth.

 

[Buzz Lightyear]

My point about this post was the difference in moral attitude towards porn and masturbation, by a theist and an atheist. Do they both consider porn as evil? Isn't an atheist more prone to rationalize the usage of porn and masturbation in a regulated and controlled manner and more prone to relapsing, that is my doubt and fear.

Yes, you are right. Both the theist and atheist have recourse to the base of health/ psycho-physical arguments against PMO. These may be considered sufficient, but then maybe they are not. The theist has also a whole superstructure of thought available to him as a further aid in getting rid once and for all the evil of PMO. For one, he is in a position to consider it wrong and evil.....

 

[Plutonium]

No, not really, but I don't think it's as cut and dry as you previously put it. There are some things that people have to be restricted from for society to work.

In my original answer I already provided for exceptions with respect to children.

When society encounters a new hazard - such as internet porn - it needs to find a way to handle it without simply jumping to the default reflex reaction of restricting freedoms. Allowing a situation where a child can readily access hardcore porn should be seen as one category of parental neglect. Responsibility for a child begins with the parents.

 

[dragonslayer]

Yes, you are right. Both the theist and atheist have recourse to the base of health/ psycho-physical arguments against PMO. These may be considered sufficient, but then maybe they are not. The theist has also a whole superstructure of thought available to him as a further aid in getting rid once and for all the evil of PMO. For one, he is in a position to consider it wrong and evil.....

I agree with you and this is the point that I am trying to make and discuss. That says something about the utility of belief in handling this porn crisis in our society. But I want to go one step back and see if atheism had any role to play in feeding this monster. I may be completely wrong or partially right, but still, it is something that I want to explore.

So, my question is, along with the internet boom as a major contributing factor to porn, would you say that rising atheism has also a role to play in this?

 

[Buzz Lightyear]

I agree with you and this is the point that I am trying to make and discuss. That says something about the utility of belief in handling this porn crisis in our society. But I want to go one step back and see if atheism had any role to play in feeding this monster. I may be completely wrong or partially right, but still, it is something that I want to explore.
?

I think you are right here. You are taking a pragmatic approach as opposed to a doctrinaire one - if there are to be doctrines, they should be evaluated in terms of their performance... in terms of their practical consequences, i.e.; do they contribute to the Good Life? There is no point in parroting 'free speech', or playing the fiddle, whilst Rome burns.

So, my question is, along with the internet boom as a major contributing factor to porn, would you say that rising atheism has also a role to play in this

I would take it a bit further, and identify 'individualism' as the primary cause [it's a cultural problem]. Individualism creates ideology, and ideology the anxious split in ourselves [arguably ideology is the primary addiction]. In the privacy of our own lives we think we can do anything we want. Protestants fall victim to this mentality just as much as professed atheists do.... for with the atheist they live a dichotomized existence... though they profess God in their private life. Hence the reason why so many are here... and you have the atheists complaining about the number of threads centering on religion..

The contrast to individualism and atheism is culture and religion [religio... bind together].

 

[MLMVSS]

What I am trying to say in this post, is that how religion and sense of morality affect us in our nofap quest?

Is porn and masturbation immoral? It is definitely according to many religions. But what about the atheists and non-believers. What would be their take on this?

I know agnostics who still follow many morals of a religion, but do not believe in the deitic part of a religion due to lack of substance showing that God does or doesn't exist. I haven't been around too many actual atheists to really know their opinions well enough. Either way, I don't believe them to be hedonist in general.

I have noticed that the religious people are less prone to fall to porn addiction because on top of their rational mind which says that porn is bad for the body and mind, there is an extra layer of protection by the religious faith, that porn and masturbation is a sin.

This one really depends. Is the religious person faithful, and is the church welcoming and there to provide a shoulder to lean on? Or is the church more of a demand-without-reason sort of belief? From my experiences, I'm much more likely to rebel under the latter situation.

So, if I compare two modern people, one atheist, and another theist, the theist has much more chance of overcoming their addiction and less prone to fall into it. Now, I am not saying that there can be no exceptions, but this seems like a general scenario.

This CAN be true, due to the fact that a theist has an extra community of like-minded individuals (Church) that they turn to on a regular basis. However, with a similar group of individuals, an atheist can be just as successful. Also, the act of prayer can indeed be a positive act that brings peace and serenity, whether you believe it to either be an act of faith, or nothing more than a placebo effect.

However, as I said above, this can depend. Is the church-goer punished/chastised by their ecclesiastical leaders in some unwelcoming way? For example, let's use Christianity. Will the church teach about repentance through the Lord Jesus Christ and His unconditional love, as well as hope? Or will it doom any immoral people to hell? If the latter occurs, I actually see the atheist doing better.

Also, do atheists oppose the porn industry? If we somehow remove the human trafficking into pornography, will it be moral as a society to allow porn industries to flourish? That will definitely not the case in a religious society, as most will oppose it. So from a nofap perspective, isn't religion and religious faith has an edge here in keeping our society porn free and healthy.

Atheists definitely can, and many do, though maybe not for the same reasons. Porn affects the brain like a drug does; it creates an addiction, or at the least, a painful habit. That itself gives atheists plenty of reasons to oppose it.

In fact, I know "Christians", others of "faith" and "atheists" who unfortunately participate in the porn industry.

 

[MarinoBigFan1984]

I decided to give up porn because I do believe it is morally wrong and goes against my values. Did I have a crisis of conscience? Yes. While NoFap to me is about healing physically I’m also treating it as a spiritual cleanse.