P.A.W.S. - what are they, cure, duration

I think you misunderstood @Masked-Debater. He was just straight up honest with you and I don't think that honesty should be overlooked. We all are responsible for our own paths and nobody should dictate how you wander yours - I'm completely with you on this and we all should talk with respect of each other. Nobody is going to discredit or dishonor anything you achieved until now but you need to be careful how you label your streaks and how you portray them to the outside. There are a lot of people listening and reading in this post and we all share the same misery of being trapped in a very long timeline. I gotta admit, the moment you said you are 20 months into your streak and you're still pretty much in the midst of your symptoms, something started worrying inside of me and I immediately became aware of it and dismissed it as the worrying that I no longer gonna partake in whether I will recover or not. But there are others that aren't that far in recovery as I am and being in the middle of horrific symptoms reading about a guy that went 20 months and still sees very little progress could be freigthening for others. Imagine what the one guy who just started and who felt pretty down about life must have thought when he read about that timeline. Yes, you clarified it in following posts but I personally don't consider PMO/MO binges or 6-8 tinder hook-ups in the time span over 2 months just as one or two relapses. I don't want to put any guilt or negativity about you but other people are reading what you are typing and I don't think that an extended relapse like this should be normalized as a small slip up while the 20 month streak is still going. There is a responsibility linked to talking about addiction and this involves being straight about certain things.

I had a time back in the early months of 2019 where I started drinking alcohol a little bit again, where I smoked weed ocasionally, I found myself smoking cigarettes when I was drinking, I was edging just a little. Just a little bit of everything and nothing compared to my old days. In the beginning I thought I finally found a way of controlling these things as I had a certain illusional control over them. But sooner or later those things got the grip of me again. Not in a way of me being completely automated and fully back into the addiction but it took me many months to finally admit that I fell prey to the devil again. While I was in this hovering phase of "mini-relapses" it didn't felt like going back to square one but at first recovery was stopping, then the drugs took over again, I betrayed my girlfriend out of sheer lust and not being sober. Slowly I could sense how everything is falling apart just a little bit and it took me until may/june to admit that what I was doing was relapsing and clinging onto a life that is filled with craving and longing and a lust that can't be satisfied. Do I regret having those relapses, no, I sensed that there is only one way to go. In August 19 I smoked hash 24/7 for 3 weeks in morroco on the way to the airport I smoked my last joint and I felt this inner peace of finally letting go of the things that don't contribute anything to my life anymore. I had 3 really solid weeks in morroco but I could sense that those 3 weeks would be even greater if I hadn't smoked and stayed sober. For the first time I understood what addiction was really taking away from me and thus I was able to let go on a subconscious level and not just by thoughts of train. I never looked back to smoking weed and all those relapses led me to this realization. Do I recommend relapsing in order to feel the same? NO! But if you do then be honest to yourself and admit that you fucked up and don't let your addicted part of your brain fool you into thinking that everything is okay. Not putting any guilt or shame on you is important but you can be honest with yourself without putting shame or guilt upon you. The minute I was honest to myself I was finally free and on the right path to sobriety and not longer having to fear that I relapse. No matter what happens in this universe, I know that I won't relapse ever again.

To sum this up, nobody is counting beans on your streak and how much you relapsed exactly but as you said, we are gathering data and comparing a 20 month "streak" with several major relapses with someone going 20 clean months is something very different and important, as this might send someone into a small panic attack when he hears that someone at 20 months still struggles although this is only half the truth. Most of all @Masked-Debater tried to warn you from yourself, from the part of your brain that keeps going back to addiction. I also feel like this part of you is reacting hostile onto these written words. When in fact these words just try to warn you from hovering between streaks and wasting time on recovery if you keep going back every 8-12 months, reactivating and reinforcing addiction pathways that need to be drought out over time. Even after 14 months I still have to fight fantasy the last days. It's so intense and I feel like there is still a lot of peversity inside me. I understand the strong feeling of following the lust and meet up with girls and get dirty but for me thats part of the addiction and not something I would consider a healthy libido that I wanna carry around in the future. If I learned one thing from reading and watching all those PAWS-articles and videos then its the importancy of staying sober and clean all the way in order to recover fully. I hope you aren't mad at me for being honest and if you feel so then I'm also okay with that. Just know that I don't wanna preach or shame you in any way - I hope this phase of hovering relapses are the same as my morroco journey last year: the realization that there are certain things that don't contribute to our well-being although they seem so tasty and fulfilling in the first place.

 

You're making out as though I've been claiming to be on a 20 month streak, and then someone else has just caught me out lieing and have been constantly relapsing through my journey, its completely ludicrous.

I've been completely transparent through all my posts, I completely disclose all my relapses etc and my timeframes, maybe there is one post were I mention 20 months journey, without being explicit with recent relapses. But this post is surrounded by other posts disclaiming it. The reaction is completely over the top. Please read my post history.

I dont feel any different today then I did before my recent relapses. Most of my relapses were to sex and MO in the day after. I think I watched porn once to experiment, and didnt like it.

No words from anybody on here are going to change or influence my path or how I behave (besides success stories). I've walked myself out of hell, no one can do that for us.

If you read one sentence in one of my posts, it's obviously at danger of being taken out of context. I urge you to simply go on my profile and read my last 20 comments in this thread before you pass judgement, I am completely transparent with my journey.

I simply disagree with you. You think me disclosing my recent relapses mean Im completely out of control and Im back to square one, and that Im misleading people. Thats not the case. I had 4 incidents in 2 months were I took things too far and acted out (mostly on holidays with friends), mostly from despair to see if anything will change, and it didn't and now Im back to how I was for the previous 18 months. Me sharing my story and relapses doesn't cause harm, it lets people know what its like to do these things at this stage of the journey; its more data.

Can you see how having data other then perfect recovery streaks is utterly important? We need more information in all aspects of PAWS and recovery, including how relapses or mishaps can effect us in our recovery.

In regards to my brain hostility to Masked comments, it has 0 to do with me being in defense mode trying to protect my addiction. Dude Im nearly 2.5 years total in this game, and 20 months on my current journey, I dont have compulsive relationship to sex or porn any more, I suffer from PAWS and was on holidays with guy friends all partying and sleeping with girls and I decided to do the same. Masked condescending attitude is frustrating nothing more. I am within my rights to take issue with it.

I am back on a streak with 0 issues. You've completely misunderstood my situation

 

Then I'm sorry for making any wrong assumptions, we just seem to have a very different understanding of "streak"-descriptions and I think thats completely fine and we should leave it at that point because we both seem to misunderstand each other. I never ever wanted to suggest that you are at square one. As I said every relapse has the potential to be the last, you just delay recovery by having one. But again I'm sorry and will leave it here!

 

Thanks for the supportive replies. Things are not going any better for me. Now I also feel like I'm hit with the flu. My nose is congested ans runny, I have severe acid reflux and loose stools. Last night I woke up drenched in sweat after intense nightmares. I was unable to sleep after that and severe anxiety and derealization kicked in. The worst of it, is that I can't enter public places and enter the office without severe panic kicking in. I can't go to work and visit the grocery store. This is ruining my life. I have to ask my dad to do the groceries for me. And I could not even look my dad in the eyes and talk to him without panicking! This is insane. The brain fog makes me feel so stupid as well. My memory is totally wrecked. I started nofap to get better, not to get this... I was having a little brain fog here and there, no motivation and some social anxiety also, but never at this level. I also was not getting aroused by porn anymore and was jerking off a limp noodle. I started nofap to fix these issues, not to get even more severe symptoms.

 

OK... sorry to everyone. It looks like I've created another shit storm. I apologize @humbleone if you think my response was an overreaction. I don't have the mental bandwidth to memorize everyone's story and your recent posts, in their own context, seemed like someone in bigtime denial about the danger of relapse. It seemed like some tough love was in order. Again, I apologize if I got it wrong. Maybe my recovery is much more fragile than yours but the kind of relapsing you described would definitely set me back to ground zero. I have adopted an entirely militant mental position on relapse and recovery as I think that's the best approach for nearly everyone.

Also, whenever you see something in my writing that can be perceived as condescending it's usually a back-handed stab at my own old behavior. I still remember what normal sex felt like and how much my brain has changed for the worse over the years because of porn. I hate those changes and I'll preach about it to anyone who will listen. Anyhow, I'm ready to drop it. I hope you really are unscathed from your recent relapses, genuinely. Take Care.

@DerJogge, you are quite the diplomat

 

Hang in there bud. You're part of a club that no one signs up for but there is only one way out of it, and it's the path you're on! Don't go back to fapping thinking that it will bring you back to where you were before you quit. It won't. It's still totally possible that your withdrawal won't be protracted. Right now, you're in the acute phase. Hopefully it will calm down soon. As hard as it is, do everything you can not to obsess on it. You know what it is and what's causing it so try to act as relatively normal as you can. Getting all the way through this is going to be the challenge of your life. Thank God you at least know why you feel the way you do.

Famotidine (Pepcid AC) is helpful for heartburn if you're taking it everyday as a preventative. It won't cause nutrient deficiencies like Prilosec can over time. Taking TUMS is OK on occasion but not everyday. Getting heartburn under control helps because the tightness in the chest makes the anxiety feel more intense. I had anxiety, DP/DR, and lots of nightmares too. You're not imagining it and you're not going crazy.

Remember that millions and millions of people around the world are going to be going through what you are right now because of Internet porn, and they don't even know it yet. The sooner you do this, the easier it will be, and the sooner it will be behind you. It definitely doesn't get easier the longer you put it off. I've been told that my writing style comes across as preachy probably because I use declarative sentences, but I don't mean it that way. I'm trying to give you a pep talk so that you don't waste years of your life denying and relapsing wondering if porn really did this to you. It did. You have to accept it and get a warrior's mindset. Be prepared to wait it out and defeat this addiction once and for all. None of it feels fair, but it is what it is. Use this platform as a resource because the medical establishment isn't going to be any help. In the end, you'll be better than you were before porn.

 

Thanks so much for the update Don! I’ve lurked on this thread for a long time and have learned a lot from reading your posts. You’re an excellent writer and I really admire the way you give us both detailed chronicles of your experiences and inspiring motivational pep talks at the same time. I’m happy that you’ve been able to improve so much and I hope I can do the same!

I’m sure it’s in your post history somewhere but I haven’t been able to find it, so I was wondering if you could say a bit more about how exactly your physical health has improved over the last two years, and when you saw most of the benefits begin to kick in. If I recall it seemed like most of your symptoms were cognitive, but you also say you feel more “durable” now and I’m curious to hear more about what that means.

 

Hey @Imgoingbananas, the above from @Masked-Debater is so true. If I'd known this sooner, my life would have been very different. You do know, so that's potentially saved you years of misery, and even worse symptoms further down the line. That's something to be glad for. And give your self a pat on the back for having the courage and curiosity to find this forum, and this thread. So many people are in denial about the problems that porn can have that they'll never make that leap, and they'll waste their lives because of it. Others just won't be capable of seeing it. These are big obstacles to even getting in the starting blocks, and you've managed to get past them.

It's a weird time to be alive. Most people in the world are being affected by an information landscape that is changing everything and causing all sorts of weird effects. At least you know what is causing your problems. I know it's a tough place to be right now, but keep going! Make this the no1 priority in your life and think about how good life will be on the other side.

Do you mind me asking how old you are?

 

@DerJogge How are your symptoms?

 

It's okay no hard feelings. At some point between 6months and 18 months, the compulsive aspect of it drops away, along with the fear.

I remember in the beginning of trying nofap over 2 years ago, every relapse sent me spiralling to the beginning. For the first 6-9 months I was petrified of MO as the fear that if I did it I would go back the bottom of the pit and never crawl out was completely consuming.

However, somewhere between there and 18months, this fear goes away, especially after you do relapse and you see it is no where near as compulsive as it was in the beginning. Like the urge or thoughts of watching porn no longer come into consciousness for me, and havent for a long time.

I get cravings to sleep with real girls, date, find a partner, go on holiday with friends. These are real but still dangerous.

Also at 18 months, still having symptoms filled my with despair. But this is only half the story. The other half was deep down I knew I had nearly healed, and I got complacent and went on holiday with friends (it was also my birthday), and just did some silly impulsive decisions. I shouldnt have gone away, as I was in a good monk mode streak a the time, and I was so close to not going. But the last 18 months had been hell, and I didn't barely leave my flat, so I decided to take off the mental stress and pressure.

My last few weeks streak is easy, there is no urges or anything like that to battle. It's simply battling PAWS symptoms, and persevering.

At some point, it becomes less about the fear of porn or relapse, and more about patient and the ability to endure and persevere the symptoms of PAWS without losing your mind. I, like most of us here, only expected 90 days and even the thought of that was tough, but here we are 20 months later.

God speed to all

 

I just want to say also my recent relapses were clustered, it wasn't continuous relapsing. It was more like a weekend of sex and MO, then two weeks streak, and during that two weeks me feeling recovered back to before the relapse again, repeat this 4 times.

The reason Im not saying Im on a 14 day streak and counting from there is because I still feel like my meta-streak is the same, I still feel as though Im on the same journey as in 20 months ago, so if I say 14 day streak, and then heal in 90 days, it is completely the wrong picture, and doesn't seem helpful for anyone.

If the recent relapses had gotten 6 months crazy to the point Im back it felt like Im starting again I would then refer to a new journey or streak.

But in all honesty I can report my journey in whichever way others find helpful; Im only trying to help. If people prefer different disclosure and tracking Im more than happy to, just say what formats you think would work

 

"exposed nerve" is such a good way to put it

 

Hello, i am in the 2nd day of NoFap and just 10 minutes ago i expect a huge rage ( no yelling or abnormal stuff ) . I started to workout from out of blue,just an innner voice told me to get up from my chair and start doing aggressive work out,is that a sympthom of my fapping addiction?

 

I seriously cant take this anymore guys. Been having long streaks since 4 years back with zero binges. Several 5 months streaks. Currently on 11 months with 1 MO relapse in between. havent looked at porn for 2.5 years. Anhedonia and social anxiety is eating me up, NO days where it leaves me. Only not so bad days once in a while.
Im starting to think im permanently damaged If i wasnt spiritual or had a family that loved me then i would have commited suicide long ago. People straight up dislike me and girls too, it never was this way. Its like i have the opposite of Nofap benefits: Female magnetism, confidence, and happiness, all of those reversed

Fuck this im so done. The pain i have experienced in the past 3 years is not okay at all to go through.

 

Everyone here is in the same boat. It will pass. Everyone heals at some point, and everyone that has healed reports exactly the same feelings your having now, you're not alone.

Whenever I have bad days or weeks (currently having a bad day), I remember that I have been here so many times, the fear, the frustration, the doubt. Whenever I feel Im at the low or my worse, I suddenly wake up one day feeling different, and in completely better headspace.

I started keeping a daily symptom tracker so I never need to listen to my mind again, I can see clearly I have days were I feel 2/10 well being, then all of a sudden next day 7/10. I really recommend this to poeple

 

It's always the darkest before dawn.

People used to dislike me as well and in return I would become irritated to fight them back. Things started to change for me so people become respectful towards me.
I have developed agoraphobia due to this.
Thanks to reading other PAWS post that I understood why certain stuff kept happening to me. I firmly believe people could sense our weaknesses from pmoing endlessly and when our brain are in reboot phase.
One day I was playing basketball with PAWS, all of sudden my nervous system stopped responding, I felt cold, felt like I lost my manhood, weak, back against the wall, sluggish.... Then the players started pushing me around, called me names in response to my bad performances. Those things never happens to me before even when I was pmoing heavily in my early addiction days.
I must say people with high energy used to detect my bad habits in my first year of pmo.

 

I‘m hovering in between symptoms. Anedonia came back but if I dedicate enough time onto something then I’m able to feel a somehow damped feeling of joy. For example yesterday evening I was trying to make some music but every hand and eye movement felt exhausting but as I had nothing else todo I just sat there completely demotivated to get anything done and just tipped around my piano-keyboard and after about 45 minutes of mindlessly pressing keys I found a nice little melody which got me hooked, recorded it and felt good while listening to it. The moment I decided to get ready for bed, a shadow of symptoms took over again. It’s just like someone is turning the lights on and off. At this point I‘m not really suffering strongly anymore but it’s just annoying to feel fine one moment and then being brain dead again. As I said, it’s like someone turns the light on and off constantly - I wish it would stay on either side because I can’t stand the flickering. But I’m complaining more then I should. Being in the light for 1-2 weeks and seeing how normal you can feel, even with several symptoms left, was a great experience and being patient is the key at this point of recovery. But the mind sometimes struggles to stay in the here and now - currently it dwells on the aspiration of just living life and enjoying the little things, nothing crazy. There seems like a big wall between me and life and I’m tiptoeing around seeing people dancing and laughing on the other side while I have to wait until I finish my ladder to climb over. My self-pity-game is strong the last days as you can see

 

I'm mired in the anhedonia right now also. My HFLC diet definitely helps with acute anxiety and gastro stuff but I just can't feel passion or enthusiasm for anything at all. Decision making is nearly impossible. But anyhow, at least the weather is nice right now.

I live in Florida where it's almost always hot so when the fall air gets here it's super noticeable. The blues seem bluer and the greens seem greener with the crisp dry air around. It gives me memories of happier times. It's amazing really how much of our memories are connected to senses other than vision and sound. I went for a bike ride yesterday and without any warning I became aware of the cool dry air on my face, the vivid colors, and a strong whiff of freshly cut grass that instantly triggered a memory of being a kid on my way home from baseball practice. I remembered the feeling of walking around in my cleats, the smell of the leather glove in my hand, and even the way the hotdogs tasted at the little league concession stand. For just a couple seconds it was like I was there again. I tried to hold on to the feeling but unfortunately it didn't last very long. I frequently get these little deja vu's lately from different times in my life. These memories that also have feelings attached to them. Hopefully it's a good sign.

When you're locked in your own head for so long like I've been you forget how much of life is about experiencing things with all of your senses. How your brain doesn't just remember the sights and sounds of life but also the feelings that are happening as well. Being present happens automatically when you're young. I can't wait until I can be motivated, decisive, and competent again sure, but also being able to put it all aside at just appreciate life as it is. Right now I can laugh at a joke I think is funny but I can't laugh from joy or happiness. Life is nearly worthless without that.

On that note, Happy Thanksgiving folks.

 

That's a great point about body and mind being intertwined, and I totally agree. It sounds like you did deal with some of the same issues I'm grappling with so it's good to know they faded in time. I'm particularly happy to hear that your tinnitus cleared up since that's been a big one for me. I think it first came on after a binge several months ago and has maybe improved somewhat but not by much.

One of the main physical issues that I'm most concerned about is what seems to be some sort of generalized loss of muscle and connective tissue. My eyes feel sunken back in their sockets. I have widespread joint, back, and limb pain that feels as if it's coming from bones starting to grind against each other because whatever squishy stuff was cushioning them has withered away. I'm concerned about the prospects for recovery here because my understanding is that ligaments, tendons, etc. don't really regenerate to the same extent that muscles do, but I'm hoping I'm wrong about that...