Hello fellow fapstronauts, I am thinking a lot about this reboot idea. I did not do much research yet about that whole dopamine thingie, but my gut feeling is that if I do a reboot and focus on P/MO/PMO, I might basically just do a reroute. I mean - I developed so many strategies throughout my life to modify my mood and make myself "happy" that when I cut out P and MO out of my life completely, I will just do other things that have a similar effect for me. If I had to list just from the top of my head, what might serve as a surrogate to PMO for me: Overeating on fatty, starchy food watching television/films for hours on end drinking a bottle of wine or two sleeping for 12 to 15 hours at a stretch and being completely zonked out for the rest of the day hours of surfing the internet mindlessly for "interesting" stuff (e.g. reddit) (even without looking at P) In german there is even a word for this: Ersatzbefriedigung (vicarious satisfaction) Maybe I am getting this thing horribly wrong, but I think for me all these things (and maybe some more) are fullfilling equal roles in my life. PMO or just MO might have a special place because they remove me more from actual life and real contact to fellow humans (especially my wife), as it is the most private and secretive of those activities ... but at least to me they're not fundamentally different. So if this all has to do with rewiring something in my brain I feel that a proper reboot can only happen for me if I stop all those activities that I identify as fulfilling a similar purpose (read giving me a shortcut to "happiness"). Otherwise I would just do one of the other things more often and nothing would fundamentally change. I think I even did that quite a lot throughout my live. I had long phases where I e.g. did not drink, did not eat meat and dairy, did not [fill in whatever here] ... so I had my fair share of not doing something I identified as harmful for a while. But then I did just more of the other stuff to keep my screwed up dopamine system exactly where it wanted to be. So I come to the conclusion that only stopping all the stuff that is in combination providing the pillars for my "emotional stability" might bring some fundamental change in my messed up brain chemistry. Obviously just stopping everything that keeps me "sane" won't work so I have to add activities to my life that might not be as "rewarding" in the short term but give me the strength and stability. I am still working on that ... Anyway, this is what's rattling around in my mind. I am thinking of cutting all these activities out of my life for 3 months - starting in January. But this is early days and I would appreciate some feedback of some of you more experienced fapstronauts. Cheers N.I.D P.S. sorry for all the quotation marks
Great questions/post etc...I would love to get into this with you now but just off out! Just a quick question for now...do you have a sweet tooth? Also would you say you suffered from depression. There's a reason I ask but gotta go for now
I completely agree with your theory - but I'm working on one thing at a time. I've been working out more, eating better for the past 9 months or so, so that habit is better. But I have definitely noticed my eating habits worsening since beginning NoFap, so I think there is a correlation there. Interesting thoughts. Thanks for your post - but as I said, one thing at a time. I'm focused more on my PMO issues at the moment, so I'm allowing myself some slippage in other personal departments that I'm working on. Cheers!
Hi NotInDenial. I can only address PMO. In fact, I routinely tell people that in my opinion this site is a valuable tool in quitting PMO, but it is most valuable, most efficient, and produces the most success when it is used ONLY to deal with quitting PMO. Your post addresses a lot of other issues. You asked for input so I am going to give it to you. Forgive me if this is too direct. PMO never made you happy. Giving up PMO will not make you happy. Using this site will not make you happy. However, using this site is useful to eliminate PMO from your life. PMO is a mechanism to release dopamine and other chemicals in your brain associated with wanting and getting; i.e., hunger and satisfaction, lust and satiation. It happens in your brain's chemical reward center, so it feels "good" because your brain's chemical reward center has decided to reward it. Our brains cannot distinguish between high speed internet porn and actual sex, and it comes to reward porn over sex because it is easy, endless, and available 24/7. You are not feeling happy when you use porn, you are feeling "high"; there is of course a difference. I will say you have a much higher likelihood of actually being happy if you are not getting high all the time. Of course, with every high there is a low, so use porn, withdrawal, use porn, withdrawal, etc. Most guys come to hate that cycle and that is why they are here quitting. I am uncertain what are surrogates for you. I use the term "porn substitutes". Certainly, some of the things on your list might be; others not so much. Again, if you are trying to achieve happiness, this site and the methods here will not help you much, but if you are trying to quit porn, it can. Quitting porn is about lowering your dopamine soaked brain back to normal levels. I will say your post sounds like a guy who thinks he indulges too much in things that are wasting his time or not especially valuable. You might find a hobby you feel is valuable. As for cutting everything out though, except for the porn use, I think you just need to cut them back, not necessarily eliminate them. Understand that for a guy like me, who is addicted to porn, it is not just a bad habit I can pick up and put down. I had to accept porn was in control. I had to get it completely out of my life to control it. It is gone and it is never going to be allowed back in, ever. You mention that if you got PMO out of your life you would just use other things to be happy. That may be, nothing wrong with happiness. But I will tell you that the other things are not dopamine triggers, certainly not nearly as strong as porn. Point being, porn is different than the other things you mentioned. Your brain's reward center will not reward them as it does for the fake sex porn represents, and until you realize your other issues are not on par with your porn problem, you probably have underestimated your porn problem. I will say that the other problems you mention are ways a lot of us deal with porn withdrawal. Instead of watching porn, when we are trying to quit, we find other things to soften the pain of withdrawal. We eat too much, we drink too much, we sleep too much; we do whatever it takes to fill our time not watching porn. Those things do not make us happy, but they do soften the pain of withdrawal. You might consider that as a possibility. Good luck on your journey. I have posted a thread about my journey and becoming PMO free. It is here if you care to read it: http://www.nofap.org/forum/showthread.php?2402-Get-educated-get-tools-and-learn-to-love-withdrawals Peace. PS: Thanks for posting. Reading posts and replying are part of my recovery. So it helped.
All great great/knowledge advice above so just to add a little bit. I really want to quit sugar and caffeine (for the upteenth time!) but am currently munching the head of something like my tenth gingerbread Satan, ahem, sorry...Santa (the little bastards just keep 'tempting' me!!) I have been completely without PMO for a month now prior to which I was not eating sugar, and hadn't been for quite some time. But I think I have a certain KIND of brain and somebody called Kathleen DesMaisons did some brilliant work distinguishing this kind of brain from other, what could be considered more 'normal' brains. I might be stating the obvious here but I have long since thought that human beings are animals (bear with me- I don't mean that in an insulting way)and under the 'umberella'/species that we call human beings (or homosapien, or whatever?)there are various sub-species. As a comparison look at the dog 'family' and the massive range of shapes, colours, sizes etc etc and then look at humans. And how many people would tell you that this or that particular breed of dog has a certain 'temperament' which will surely be based on that 'type' of dogs particular body/brain chemistry (and of course no two will be exactly the same but there will be a general 'theme') (And please just see this analogy for what it is, a tool to illustrate a point) Now it would be easy to scoff at those ideas and even think me 'barking' mad (sorry!!)but it DOES illustrate the possibility at least that there are very different types of people with equally different types of brain chemistry. What Katherine DeMaisons identified is that there are millions of people whose body/brain chemistry makes them what she calls 'sugar sensitive' and she arrived at this discovery whilst studying a group of particularly 'hard core' addictive types (drinkers) which nothing seemed to work. They simply could not break the addictive cycle and she wanted to understand what was 'different' about them. Firstly though let me just list the typical traits of sugar sensitive people who will experience some or all of the following: Overeating Overworking Overspending Mood swings Prone to fattening foods and alcohol Feeling bloated Depression Feeling lazy Self-indulgence Undisciplined Exhaustion Hoplessness Low self-esteem (now if somebody experiencing that lot isn't going to be driven to PMO I don't know who is!!) Apparently it all about blood sugar levels, serotonin, beta-carotene and the effects these not being in balance can have on our energy, moods etc (which will affect whether or not we will be PRONE to PMO) to me it's all connected, nothing (at ALL) exsists in isolation and so to treat a 'symptom' we have to consider the 'whole' and this is why allopathic medicine is so hoplessly inadequate (and is the third biggest cause of death in the western world after cancer and heart disease) We simply cannot tackle symptoms alone. We have to address the CAUSES and this is something Katherine DesMaisons did with the addicts she ultimately identified as sugar sensitive. And we are only talking about the 'physical' aspect of the human being here which is of course 'animated' by an energy source beyond pure physical matter itself (which if you really want to get into the science isn't really physical at all as its ALL energy) and I only mention this to further illustrate the necessity of understanding/employing the 'whole' as the brain/mind are not the same thing, one being physical and the other abstract whilst BOTH influencing AND being influenced BY our behaviours etc And all this on top of the situation with dopamine makes it quite a complex scenario when all's considered. Now I need to do something about my sugar intake because I am doing exactly what your post was concerned about which is finding 'surrogate' fixes (for all the various reasons mentioned) and I know I am a sugar sensitive person and I am onto it and am in 'preperation' for quitting sugar again (which is how I quit things but that's another story) One of the things DesMaisons identifies about sugar sensitives is to do with neuro-transmitters in the brain (and I am trying to remember this now so bear with me)and in very lay mans terms these are the messengers of the brain. Apparently cells don't actually touch each other and they send information to each other via these neuro-transmitters and brain chemicals like serotonin, beta-carotene (and possibly dopamine??) and they have a very powerful affect on our brain. Each type of neuro-transmitter has a particular shape/structure and carries its own distinct message. When one brain cell wants to send a message to another it releases a chemical messanger into the space between it and the receiving cell. These neuro transmitters then float across this tiny channel and look for a place to land. Each receiving cell has thousands of tiny receptors to catch the neuro-transmitters each designed to 'catch' a specific type and only that type. When enough receptors have received the message and the cell 'gets' the message it passes the information onto the next cell and so on and so on which all happens in a very short time. If I remember correctly people who are sugar sensitive have TOO FEW receptors in their cells SPECIFICALLY for some or all of the 'feel good' chemicals like serotonin/dopamine etc and so we tend to over-indulge which can ensure more of what we want to 'receive' is being 'sent' but the whole thing ends up going horribly terribly wrong because we don't understand what's going on and so we indulge in behaviours/habits that cause way too much of the chemical we want to be sent which causes us all kinds of problems which we think are un-related but are a direct consequence etc (see list of symptoms above) (NOW I HAVE JUST READ THAT BACK AND I KNOW IVE NOT GOT IT 100% CORRECT BUT IF IT PROVOKES FURTHER ENQUIRY THEN ITS DONE IS JOB!) God I hope I've explained that well enough for it to have AT LEAST made you a little curious into looking into whether or not you are sugar sensitive??? Katherine DesMaisons book is called 'Potatoes not Prozac' and I highly recommend it (I might even dig it out and read it again myself as I've gone and pricked my own curiosity again now, so much to read and do, so little time!) @William - I would be very curious to know where dopamine fits into the above scenario (and vice versa) and I will look into that when I get a minute, probably after Xmas now (there could be an interesting picture emerging?) Sorry this was so long! Hope it helped
P.S. @jiltedjohn: looks like we have a lot in common: most of your comments/questions just hit me like you know me already!
Yeah, that would be enough to drive me to PMO! I hadn't heard of this sugar sensitivity before, but I have noticed in the past that when I reduce my sugar intake I felt better. Bears investigating further for me.
Hi William, Yes, I can follow you, but I ask myself: can my brain even distinguish between the dopamine release I get from porn and the dopamine release I get from some other addictive behavior/substance? Has that ever been measured? And how reliable are these measurements anyway? For example: what about stuffing myself with high energy food? Both activities - sex and food - are at the absolute core of our internal survival programs, so why should the effects on the brain be not the same? Is there any research about "polymorphous addiction" or whatever one might call it? I mean on the one hand all these addictions are explained by science in the same way, but on the other hand they are treated separately. Why is there not just a treatment for general addiction? Why are there different 12 steps groups for every addiction on the planet, when their program is the same anyway? Why not just one? I am just starting to doubt that whole approach ... and I might add that all existing treatment programs that I know of are not very effective, so whatever science found out about addiction has not made a big dent in actually helping us addicts. My feeling at the moment is: I have to identify my individual "addiction cocktail" and do something about the whole package in one fell swoop. I tried the "one thing at a time"-approach (not just once), and it always worked for a while but nothing fundamentally changed, and in the end I just had my cocktail of addictions back, maybe in a different composition but with all ingredients intact. Yeah, that's why I put the "happy" in quotes Isn't happiness the end goal of all our endeavors? Isn't PMO mainly a deceiving shortcut to some kind of happiness that ulitmately leads to more suffering? I am aware that indulging in addictive behaviours will never lead to true happiness, but I think this is why they are so powerful, because some lower level parts of our cognitive system think something like: "If I do/eat/drink/smoke/... this now, I will be happy" - and we let those lower level functions take over our decision making and strengthen their hold over us. I will say your post sounds a bit like a guy who gives advice to somebody who is just slightly uncomfortable with his life style Well, I am definitely more than uncomfortable with my life style and a new hobby won't cut it. I am a guy that is systematically digging his own grave with a cocktail of addictive behaviours and substance abuse for about two decades now (with interruptions and fluctuations in intensity) and who is looking for way to achieve fundamental change that finally works. I think my fundamental problem is that I am systematically using shortcuts to "happiness" (<-quotes). PMO is one of these. Could you point me to any research about this? I am definitely willing to stand corrected there ... although the only way I think I can verify or refute it is by experiencing it myself. My experience over the last years watching my own addictive patterns lead me to believe that porn is not fundamentally different (addiction wise). It has a more devastating effect on my relationship though - this is what I am realising at the moment. What I consider a possibility is that PMO is special in a way that if I cut this out of my life completely my other addictions loose their power over me as well. I don't feel any movement towards that direction though although my counters at the bottom of my posts are moving along quite nicely. What I do feel, is that my other addictive behaviours are on the rise. Well, that's what I am talking about ... maybe these "coping mechanisms" are just "replacement addictions" prolonging the agony that keep the screwed up dopamine system and the destructive brain pathways intact? Anyway, I am willing to make that experiment of a 3 month super reboot. If I fall down horribly and relapse, I will report here. If i fall down partially, I will report here. If I succeed, I will report here. I am definitely having a go at this though. Thanks for your thoughts. Oliver P.S. I want to answer to all your posts and I will, but now I have to peel the potatoes for our christmas dinner - have a nice christmas or whatever you might be celebrating
I did not have to search for very long to find a whole slew of material that underlines my thoughts: http://sidsavara.com/television-vid...hat-hijack-your-brains-dopamine-reward-system This article mentions: alcohol, television, music - basically every cultural artefact one might enjoy (reading text not included though). So thinking that through to the logical end means that partaking in our western civilized culture is automatically screwing with our dopamine reward system ... The next article is specifically about television, which was always my fallback, when I was "detoxing" in the past: http://www.aricsigman.com/IMAGES/VisualVoodoo.LowRes.pdf Well this sounds very much like what I have read about the effects of consuming P. Maybe the intensity is different but not the underlying mechanism. Another thought: maybe the "consuming" part in general is at the core of the problem? Maybe a general shift in my live from consuming whatever to more creation and communication would cause a more fundamental change? I am definitely a consumer in the sense that my idea of a good time is still consuming something rather than creating something or communicating more ...
I agree, modern lifestyle is the ROOT cause. Sex became an industry and we all know what's happened there. Food became an industry and quantity very quickly became the bottom line way ahead of quality. We are all consumers, our minds being constantly led by advertisements telling us we are a nobody unless we have this or that (have you ever seen the film 'They Live' which is an excellent portrayal of a materialist society 'governed' by the utterly corrupt/criminal mindset we are all more than familiar with... "Just look at us. Everything is backwards, everything is upside down. Doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, psychiatrists destroy minds, scientists destroy truth, major media destroys information, religions destroy spirituality and governments destroy freedom."- Michael Ellner Or 1984? Imagine a society where there's a box (hypnotist) in the corner of every room that tells us what to think, what's normal, what to eat and drink, what the 'news' is, what to buy So I agree, we need to be looking at our whole lifestyle because these behaviours do not exsist in isolation (nothing does- whatsoever!) and harking back to my earlier long post in this thread a lot of our problems stem from our diet and how that effects our moods and how our moods effect our behaviours and how our behaviours affect our habits and how our habits affect our diet and round and round we go and its a fucking not-so-merry- go round that I think we can all relate to on here and like i keep saying we will not get off it if we keep focusing on the symptoms whilst ignoring the CAUSES!! (Sorry for swearing) I saw myself so much in your original post and like you I don't just want to quit PMO because I know those 'self same sickening thoughts will go and attatch themselves to something, or somebody else, and the whole damn thing starts all over again"... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fckRgkNJWZY&feature=youtube_gdata_player See if these strike a chord with you... http://www.nofap.org/forum/showthread.php?2302-Soap-operas-and-reality-tv http://www.nofap.org/forum/showthread.php?2520-Bill-Hicks Also there's a great book (I got a book for every occasion!!) called 'Remotely Controlled- How television is ruining our lives and what we can do about it' by Aric Sigman which is SHOCKING but of course most people would rather watch the X-Factor!! Like John Lennon once observed, "Keep you doped with religion, sex, and TV. And you think your so clever and classless and free. But your still fucking peasants as far as I can see..."- Merry Christmas by the way!! P.s. Not ALL TV is bad for us though ;-) http://www.thepeoplesvoice.tv/
You might find this thread interesting? http://www.nofap.org/forum/showthread.php?2583-Starting-all-over-again-(and-again-and-again)
Just to mention that I have been NoFap for roughly the same time as you and I had previously quit sugar more or less completely for months (sugar is a biggie for me!) but I've been back on it a fair few weeks now which all started with the usual type rationalisation of... "mmm, that's an interesting flavour of chocolate, I've never seen that before and I haven't had sugar for months so I KNOW I don't need it so I might as well 'treat' myself blah blah blah!!" ...and then, as I was thinking this out loud, my son he pipes up (reinforces), "aw dad, go on, just treat yourself, what's wrong with you y' weirdo?!?! Surely you can just have sugar now and then, as a treat!? But I can't, because I'm sugar sensitive and sugar (and refined foods such as white flour etc) are like a drug to my 'type' and it REALLY is all or nothing for me and I guess what I'm saying is that one addiction goes and another creeps in and so we have to be extra vigilant. For me all I have to do is quit caffeine (in tea) and sugar/refined flour and I'm pretty 'clean' all round but the problem is these things are EVERYWHERE and are considered ultra-normal and most people I know think I'm mad or some kind of neurotic hypochondriac for wanting to quit my 'addictions' (usually though they have a coffee in one hand, a biscuit in the other, a cigarette in their mouth, a TV guide and a 'news'-paper under their arm, an iPad under the other, headphones over their ears, the latest designer gear, reaking of the latest 'celebrity' endorsed 'fragrance', and a pile of damp tissues they need to rush home and remove from the side of the bed before the wife sees them!!)but it is quite a challenge to be a vegetarian, sugar-free, flour-free, carbohydrate-free, porn-free, alcohol-free, drug-free, nicotine-free, caffeine-free, television/media-free, person in the so-called 'free' world!! (Ain't freedom GREAT!!) So if you want 'freedom' from 'addiction' you're going to have to put some effort in has been my experience because you WILL be misunderstood and you will be bombarded by 'temptations' constantly but its a worthy challenge if ever there was one! Now I don't know how all this ties in with dopamine and all other issues raised etc- I'm just finding this thread really interesting because it's covering a LOT and it's really got me thinking (oh no!!) and REALLY up for quitting the lot!! Cheers
Hi, Don't know if I should laugh my arse off or cry - bit if both I guess. So true! Well ... I had my fair share of quitting this or that throughout my life already (I am 41) and the hardest things are the ones that are just everywhere and so deeply embedded in our culture that people think you're weird if you don't participate. From January 2012 to June 2013 I eat almost exclusively vegan avoiding all kinds of refined foods as good as possible and it really did me good. But it was really hard,when on the road and socializing as people constantly wanted to discuss my eating habits and I felt obliged to explain myself. Going mainly vegan/unrefined is another part of my budding total reboot plan - but this time it's going to be different. I won't discuss - I will just tell. Just like you say: "I don't drink" I don't have to explain myself to anybody and being aware of that is another important aspect for me to make my life easier while swimming against the mainstream This conversation is giving me a lot of inspiration as well... this whole sugar sensitivity thing struck me like lightning - I just ordered "The Sugar Addict's Total Recovery Program". Thanks mate! NID
