Celibacy

Discussion in 'Off-topic Discussion' started by Buzz Lightyear, Jun 16, 2018.

  1. I agree, it is possible, even out of the monastic life, just because you want to :) I'm on that path now despite it's really hard
     
  2. moonesque

    moonesque Fapstronaut
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    Celibacy can represent a way of understanding to be closer to God. The Church itself is in spiritual marriage to God and if the Priesthood of that Church cannot adhere to the standard of self-mastery for understanding, it is most likely a decay of will, for another religions simply not applicable due to understanding.

    The advent of abuse is most likely a spiritual problem which attracted certain kinds of people to it, not a problem with Celibacy itself. Hence we see abuse everywhere today, but not before in the same manner.

    This is also not to say that Celibacy is “required” for all stages in life.
    A son of duty, a son of love, these children all happen and can create beauty that is true, no religion denies his. A man or woman who decides to stay celibate their whole life is truly making a sacrifice, and they do gain, but what do they?

    However, after that duty is fulfilled, what do we expect out of life?

    I believe St. Augustine had a woman out of marriage and had children with her before converting, and he was one of the most pious and holy of individuals.

    The heart is necessary for Celibacy and goodness, not rules and external conditions.
     
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  3. How is celibacy "ideal" when it would lead to the extinction of humanity?
     
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  4. @Castielle, I see where you are going, and it's not ideal for everyone. As Paul says, for those unmarrried who would burn with passion It's better that they marry. The interesting thing is that many people have sex their whole lives and avoid furthering the human race with contraception. Do you think openness to children is a requirement of marriage?

    This is an fascinating article on Japans sex industry. Pornography use is very high there and there is plenty of sex, but populations are still declining overall.

    https://www.economist.com/asia/2018/04/05/japans-sex-industry-is-becoming-less-sexual
     
  5. Yes, that's my point.

    God also said to be fruitful and multiply. Which celibacy would render impossible. I don't understand the glamorization of celibacy, as if it's the best way for someone to live, the highest level of holiness. I've had this debate here before, though, and few people seem to agree with me. I think marriage is an absolutely beautiful creation, ordained by God, and I don't see how celibacy is somehow "better" than that. When God created Adam, He said it wasn't good enough, because it's not good for man to be alone. He also pretty quickly discussed children and multiplying the earth, which obviously requires sex.
     
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  6. Honestly, this is a bit off topic. I don't want to take away from the message that being celibate is okay and that people shouldn't feel bad about being single. Obviously I agree with that.
     
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  7. Ra's Al Ghul

    Ra's Al Ghul Fapstronaut

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    The last place anyone should take sexuality advice from is the roman catholic church. You have got to be kidding me.
     
  8. Buzz Lightyear

    Buzz Lightyear Fapstronaut

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    Without the pursuit of the ideal, humanity is in danger of extinction. Arguably, our humanity consists in the ideal.

    There should always be an educated elite, or an intelligentsia, looking to enculturate the mass into the ideal. Of course, this runs counter to our egalitarian instincts [ideologies], which are reductive and realist in nature.

    The principle at play here is order [the great chain of being]... and always contrasted to freedom, which when absolute becomes chaos. Order and freedom, the two great polarities of human existence.

    As previously mentioned, the ideal is not the real for everyone [a vow of celibacy], but as also mentioned, the existence of this ideal serves to negate the idea that [involuntary] celibacy is abnormal for the mass of people unable to have sex... which is, let's face it, the majority of people outside of marriage. Pornography, advertising and the mass media perpetually push the illusion that everyone is having sex.... Or should be, and if they are not then something is wrong with them.
     
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  9. Buzz Lightyear

    Buzz Lightyear Fapstronaut

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    Yes, this is the point. It's about creating space to say celibacy is OK. It's not about saying one thing is the best. There are different forms of the ideal. For some people marriage is the ideal, for others it might be celibacy. It is this largesse of mind that is being lost today.
     
    Eleanor likes this.
  10. Lol are you kidding? Without the pursuit of the ideal... i.e., in your opinion, celibacy, humanity will go extinct. Never mind the fact that celibacy makes children impossible. Do you hear yourself? That makes absolutely no sense.

    When you say something is ideal, that is claiming it is the best. Synonyms for ideal: perfect, best possible, flawless, faultless, exemplary. Defintion: satisfying ones conception of what is perfect; most suitable.

    Celibacy is a perfectly fine option, but it is not "most suitable" for the human race. It might be most suitable for some people, but not in general.

    Okay, I didn't read that part of your post yet. Seems to contradict what you said before, but if that's all you're saying, then fine. Obviously celibacy can be ideal for some people, in some situations. From my perspective, you framed this as if it was the ideal way to live for every human, everywhere, and if we could all just overcome our pesky sexual desires, we would all be better off being celibate. Which again, I find ridiculous, considering the very nature of humanity and procreation.
     
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  11. Buzz Lightyear

    Buzz Lightyear Fapstronaut

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    There is the ideal... and then there is ideology... and the twain will never mix. Sigh.

    This comes down to education [or lack of it], habits of thinking, the approach we take to language, whether of a literal or figurative bend... any number of things which are essentially differences in culture.... keeping in mind that one's cultural or interpretative apparatus is the basis on which things are made intelligible.

    But I suspect I may as well have written this in Chinese.:D
     
  12. SolitaryScribe

    SolitaryScribe Fapstronaut

    You're planning on living a celibate life outside of the monastic life?
     
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  13. SolitaryScribe

    SolitaryScribe Fapstronaut

    I'm not sure if you're Christian. However from the Christian perspective, celibacy is actually very biblical. Paul had wished everyone was as he is (celibate) however he understood that this wasn't realistic for all men. Celibacy isn't a holier than thou doctrine, it a specific calling from God for certain individuals who are called to live a particular life style, primarily in service of the church or a life of prayer. Celibacy is a road to God as is marriage. They are both holy and consecrated by God.
     
  14. Buzz Lightyear

    Buzz Lightyear Fapstronaut

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    Not sure if this is a surprised question mark or just a normal one. Anyway, I think celibacy is perfectly possible outside the monastic life... within the layman's life. I'm not quite sure why people think it's superhuman... perhaps because we live in such a sex obsessed society?

    There are voluntary celibates [taken the vow]
    There are so-called 'incels'.. 'involuntary celibates'.. a terrible term
    And there are maybe undecided celibates... a kind of MGTOW [man gone his own way] though if he stumbles across an attractive, gracious, kind and worthy woman, he might change his ways.
     
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  15. SolitaryScribe

    SolitaryScribe Fapstronaut

    I agree, it's definitely possible for celibacy outside of monasticism. However it's an extremely difficult cross to bare. @Eleanor is only 20 and she wants to pursue the life of celibacy outside of monasticism. I think she may be a bit too young to make that call on her life.

    I'm only speaking out of experience, I have seriously contemplated celibacy outside of monasticism, I personally don't think its feasible. especially not for someone who is still young and hasn't tasted that life long enough to know if they can bare it. Hence at the moment I'm seeking the monastic calling. Because within the monastery, I will be able to find support for the struggle of celibacy.
     
  16. @SolitaryScribe, I chose my vocation at 19 when I got married. I didn't feel the need to explore life and other women to see if I could bare monogamy. I think if you are being truly called, celibacy looks like a much smaller burden, if it is a burden at all.
     
  17. @SolitaryScribe yes I'm too young but since I don't like the way boys relate with girls nowadays, specially in my country where porn seems to be a hit, then I prefer celibacy in order to be close to God. I might change my opinion if the right guy appears but that seems little probable so it gives me peace of mind to choose celibacy because thinking of a partner and seeing I don't fit with anybody is frustrating and leads me to reset. Also I agree with @Max Fisher , it's not necessary to taste everything in order to decide, in fact I think it's counterproductive, must people in monastic life are virgins and that makes it easier to remain celibate, because they don't miss sex.
     
  18. Buzz Lightyear

    Buzz Lightyear Fapstronaut

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    Celibacy is actually quite a simple affair once you have the libido under control. To think that it must be a continual and strenuous psychological struggle may reflect how far our culture has slid... not to mention how much time we spend on this site, where an out-of-control libido is almost normalized.

    In the old books of ethics, it was thought that a large percentage of people were perfectly capable of continence [not at war with themselves] due largely to habit and upbringing [and then there were the few who were though virtuous through self-determination].
     
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  19. SolitaryScribe

    SolitaryScribe Fapstronaut

    I get where your coming from, but I don't thinks that's a very good comparison. It's not the norm to be a sexual deviant, nor is it natural or holy. Therefor it's much easier not to think about polygamous relationships when you have developed feelings for someone.

    However celibacy is indeed a burden, it impacts your entire life. We were made to be social creatures, as well as sexual creatures. Unless you have a firm support or are living in a community with other celibates, it will be extremely challenging. Living in the world where everyone is married and having kids will have a psychological impact on you. Many of the church fathers advocate that monastic life is necessary for those seeking a celibate life. Because they understand that it is not a light burden, and the devil can use it to destroy you.
     
  20. SolitaryScribe

    SolitaryScribe Fapstronaut

    I agree with you. Our cultural norm has shifted the view on celibacy, not only that it has also shifted the livelihood of those who are choosing the celibate life. Hence it's important to find a community of people living a similar life.

    From the Christian perspective, God created us to live in community, even monastics live in community! It's imperative for the spiritual life to be able to live with others who help you grow in the Christian faith.
     

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