Difference between no PMO and no Porn

Discussion in 'Porn Addiction' started by jobbyj, Jun 27, 2019.

  1. jobbyj

    jobbyj Fapstronaut

    hi,

    i dont understand the difference between porn and no pmo. I have an issue with porn. I want to deal with that. I have only masturbated with porn.
    What is the issue if i start masturbating without porn during recovery? how does it impact the journey and recovery

    would appreciate an informed answer please

    thanks
     
  2. jobbyj

    jobbyj Fapstronaut

    yeah that doesnt sound like an informed answer, bit rambled. Hope someone else can add some context

    that doesnt mean i dismiss the point, just i want something more substantive / experiential knowledge at the least
     
    IR254 likes this.
  3. Dan-

    Dan- Fapstronaut

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    Look, lots of people here are going to disagree with my point of view, but that's not a good reason not to explain how I feel about this.

    I think you should experiment for yourself taking full responsibility of your action.
    Everybody is different, and everybody will have a different reaction to different methods.

    I believe that if compulsive masturbation without porn is your problem, you should abstain from porn and masturbation altogether. No question about that.

    My problem has always been porn though. (just like you)
    Edging to it, collecting massive files, looking obsessively for the 'perfect videos', risky behaviour. Masturbation only happened while watching porn since I was around 8 years old.

    Last year, my addiction got so bad that I had a PIED episode which kept me from having sex for the first time in my life. (I'm 21 btw)
    For years I've been a lurker on the 'pornfree' subreddit, which only focuses on quitting porn and doesn't ban or demonize masturbation. Somebody suggested that I started experimenting with 'vanilla masturbation'.
    At the time I strongly believed that masturbation and orgasm were bad for me, but I'm a very open minded person and I like to experiment, so I gave it a shot.
    I tried masturbating focusing on body sensation, memories of true girls that I had sexual moments with in the past, but NO PORN-RELATED THOUGHTS. (very important!)

    At first, it was difficult to even get erected. Patience and past memories of REAL EXPERIENCES helped me.
    What I've noticed was that:
    - It only took 20 minutes. (when I use porn I edge for hours)
    - The orgasm felt so much better.
    - I didn't feel the need to do it again. No compulsion tendencies. (when I PMO, I could end up doing it for multiple times a day, compulsively)
    - I felt satiated for the whole day. Mind you, my sex drive is very low because of my porn addiction. I'm probably in a state of sexual exhaustion.

    Around that time, I started having erections while trying to have sex, but very often I would lose the erection and no matter what I did, no matter what the girl did, I couldn't orgasm from real sex. --> DE (delayed ejaculation, another porn addiction-related issue)

    A month later, I kept trying to stay away from porn and even though I relapsed here and there, I got better and I finally started having orgasms while having sex. Having orgasms through sex boosted my recovery significantly.
    I believe that sex can rewire you faster than complete abstinence from sexuality. (don't kill me guys, I tell this because that's what I've seen from my experience)

    This year I experimented even more with 'vanilla/mindful' masturbation and decided to do this for 7 days:
    quit porn and masturbate without it on alternate days.
    On day 7, I had sex again. I couldn't believe it.
    My erections were strong as when I was 12 years old. I'm not joking.
    My sexual energy was so high and I could orgasm normally.
    My erections never faded during the whole time the girl was in the room with me. PIED GONE.
    The girl said she felt 'I was closer' to her and lots of other details that I won't share because may be too explicit.
    I couldn't believe the difference it made in just 7 days.
    I'm 100% sure it was because I started masturbating without porn, as I didn't change anything else during that week.

    Downsides and warnings (!):
    - Mindful masturbation without porn can cause a chaser effect (urges to watch porn) the day after.
    The same applies to sex.
    - The 'physical improvement' didn't match the 'mental improvement'.
    While I felt I was recovering from PIED, I didn't feel it helped me recover 'mentally' as fast.
    I still felt kinda tired and lethargic everyday when waking up, I still felt unconfident about myself, apathetic and at times depressed. Keep in mind that the experiment only lasted 7 days, and mental recovery is also slow on Nofap.
    - Fixing this part of the problem made it even harder for me to quit porn. Once PIED is gone it's easier to rationalize and keep using porn.

    My addiction to porn is far from cured. I've been relapsing and bingeing hard this whole year, and if I can still have sex it's only because I experiment with mindful masturbation from time to time.
    Sometimes when I have porn urges I shut them down by masturbating without it. It's a quick fix, it works, but it can backfire the day after.

    It looks like masturbation without porn helps cultivating my sexual energy, rather than wasting and killing it, which is what happens when I PMO.

    I came to the conclusion that masturbation without porn is not bad, IF done in moderation, if you are in control of it and if you don't have compulsive tendencies.
    It helped me revive my libido and sex drive.
    One thing I know is that if I just managed to replace PMO with MO, my life would get significantly better.

    This whole situation brings me to a bigger topic.
    Total abstinence from porn and masturbation and sexual activity has always been classified as the best and fastest method to recover from porn addiction on the Internet.
    Why? Was it tested? Are there studies that prove its effectiveness over other methods?
    And why are other methods like only quitting porn and keep masturbation and sex not discussed and so easily discarded?

    Nofap is the most travelled road and the road that has the most quantity of success stories; without a doubt, it will heal you if you can manage to successfully abstain and quit porn for 90 days or some years.
    But porn addiction is a relatively new problem in our generation, and I think we should be more open-minded.

    I don't know if what happened to me can apply to others' situation, but if it did, it would make the journey of recovery so much easier for a lot of people and help avoiding painful situations like experiencing PIED with a real partner or waiting 90 days or more to have optimal sexual functions again.

    An even bigger and more controversial topic is: is masturbation and ejaculation bad for you?
    Since it always looked to me like scientific research has no clear evidence of it being bad or good for you (and I might be wrong, I haven't looked into it to be sincere), I decided to judge by my experience.
    All I can do is test it on my skin. Common sense tells me that going from PMO to MO is a step forward for my health because I am addicted to porn, but I don't show compulsive behaviour when masturbating.
    I am not claiming that masturbation is healthy. I suppose it is, since it showed healthy effects on me.

    To sum up, in my case quitting porn and keeping masturbation worked better and faster than total abstinence from porn, sex and masturbation. (or abstinence from porn and masturbation only)
     
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2019
  4. Regalis

    Regalis New Fapstronaut

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    Good answer, Dan. I've had success with vanilla/mindful masturbation as well in terms of reducing urges for certain fetishes, or removing triggers from real life. I'm not going to say it's as good as abstaining completely from PMO for an extended period, but it definitely helps. What you said about it having a chaser effect is also very true, I can attest to that from experience. Additionally, there will come a time when you brain craves the same dopamine hits you got from PMO and will leave you bored/lethargic with the thought that only P can stimulate your brain and make your life exciting again. This is a huge hurdle to overcome for me personally as I typically don't even feel like working when I reach this point, but I can assure you that over time the boredom will cease and interest/enjoyment in things you used to like will return, it just takes trained patience and discipline.

    If you ever reach this point, remind yourself that the boredom is simply your brain throwing a temper tantrum that it can't poison itself anymore unless YOU give in. Stay strong man
     
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  5. bken

    bken Fapstronaut

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    The coolidge effect is one of the driving factors behind porn addiction, not too much of an issue in the case of masturbation but masturbation itself can also turn into an addiction if it's become a daily or weekly habit. Tolerance is built much quicker in the case of masturbation with porn compared to masturbation without porn.
    In case you don't know what the coolidge effect is, it's when seeing a new girl every time turns you on much faster. You're turned on way more by this new actress than the one you already masturbated to. This effect helps an addict overcome tolerance. Fetishes work on the same principle. It's all about novelty, novelty and novelty. Surely you'll fantasize about different things when you masturbate but you'll rationalize those thoughts, you'll be able to distinguish them from real life situations, whereas porn is harder to rationalize since it involves real (but fake) sex and real people.
    You should in any case not masturbate more than once a month without porn and never with porn if you want to have a healthy sexuality. In case you've been seriously addicted masturbation without porn is not recommended.
     
    Dan- likes this.
  6. IR254

    IR254 Fapstronaut

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    I can only support what @Dan- is saying. A lot of truth in his post.
     
    Dan- likes this.
  7. Ronila

    Ronila Fapstronaut

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    I agree with vast majority of what you said. Going "zen mode" does not work and is torture at best, people almost never succeed and end up full of guilt.

    Any activity including masturbation, watching TV, playing games, eating or porn "observation" are not bad or good. How they are used can be bad or good.
    There is distinction between use and abuse, that noone makes with pornography, people just say - look if we do brain scan of someone watching porn - it looks like he is high on cocane!
    What they do not want to know is that brain of someone eating sugar looks like he is on cocaine as well. But that is something we cant talk about here... prohibited...

    In my opinion it is best to rationally understand what activity brings and objectively agree if its benefits are bigger than its cost and then make a decision about how much of that activity you want.
    There are activities you will find very difficult to stop, like breathing, eating, drinking, going to the bathroom, moving(try sitting motionless for 5 minutes) and finally desire for sex - trying to resist those desires is a loosing battle because brain is designed to be able to force your do them. Its not that you need willpower to resit, no its that brain can temporarily disable willpower to get you to do them.
    And when you loose willpower you do allot more than you expected.
     
  8. bigboibez

    bigboibez Fapstronaut

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    This is an interesting point. for me when I relapsed in the past i actually preferred watching videos/scenes/girls that I fantasized about, but slowly and surely I did escalate to some things that I would never be attracted to in real life.

    I can also attest to the fact that willpower methods don't work unless you have had a shock moment or an extremely significant change in psychology. if you just keep trying over and over and getting more and more annoyed it actually makes everything worse.

    The problem for me was that I put nofap on a massive pedestal. I believed that if I could abstain for 90 days, PMO would magically never enter my mind again and I would be free forever. obviously I put massive pressure on myself which made it harder to quit and when I relapsed, I felt awful. this is a stupid idea. ultimately its best to find what works for you. I finally worked out that simply doing the same thing over and over isn't gonna work and I needed to change. I considered masturbating without porn in order to combat urges much better, or use blockers/accountability software. its important to understand it isn't the be all and end all of your life and to take it easy and just find a way that works best. and if you watch porn once every 2 weeks or so but have no problems in the bedroom or in life there is nothing to be ashamed of. but for addicts this can be a slipperly slope and sometimes its best to simply quit porn for good and just MO when you're horny or have sex.
     
  9. Dan-

    Dan- Fapstronaut

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    This is a big issue that came up with most common recovery concepts in online communities about porn addiction.

    Putting Nofap on a pedestal is a terrible way to fill your life with guilt and shame.
    I was heavily influenced by common and dangerous ways of thinking, like ejaculation being bad and all that 'superpowers' stuff.

    I used to put Nofap on a pedestal too, and each time I failed to abstain from any form of sexual activity, it truly felt like the end of the world to me. The shame and guilt made mental and physical damage of pornography even worse.
    I felt like people were going to ignore me because 'I lost my superpowers'.
    I felt unworthy of girls attention because I relapsed.
    I felt unworthy of friends and happiness because I had an orgasm.


    Ejaculation is a taxing process for the body in the short term. Does that mean we should avoid it at all costs? Does it necessarily mean that it is bad?
    Does that mean a porn addict, who is probably used to a high number of ejaculations every week, should cease his sexual activity (being masturbation or sex) overnight?

    The concept of 'semen retention' is still fascinating to me, don't get me wrong.
    I'll probably experiment with it once I make sure porn is not a problem anymore.
    (even though I think that 'superpowers' is just you recovering from the damage of pornography)
    But I think it's a very extreme path to take if you're a porn addict, and it's not sustainable long-term, unless you want to suppress your sexuality.
    I sincerely do not think it is the best way to recover from porn addiction. Most people can't make this huge change with a simple decision.

    If you think about it, it could even be dangerous to go from an extreme to the other.
    And I think that's why people recovering have flatlines and most of the time end up bingeing so much.
    Think about 'binge-eaters'. They binge-eat because they try to follow extreme diets and extreme sudden changes in their ways of eating.
    They adopt an 'all-or-nothing' mindset and they feel miserable when they fail to stick to their diet.
    I might be wrong, but I think the situation is very similar.

    The only thing I'm 100% sure is that porn is dangerous and you should quit.
    Science proved it, and it only takes common sense to see that abusing a superstimolous is just as dangerous as taking drugs.

    A reminder to anybody who's struggling and got caught up in dangerous ways of thinking:
    recovery
    is not an 'all-or-nothing' process.
    It's tough to take control of sexuality if you became addicted to porn.
    It's ok to slip and fall, because recovery is a huge change.
    Be kind to yourself and do not get discouraged, but don't go to the other extreme either. Do not allow yourself to half-ass your recovery, take it seriously, take responsibility. Make it clear in your mind that you're addicted to porn and you can't live mindlessly. You must take care of yourself.
    This is what allowed me to binge less and minimize damage over the years.
     
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  10. bigboibez

    bigboibez Fapstronaut

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    You're right. this is a great point. I can fully relate to how you feel after a relapse. it felt like the end of the world. Right now I have lots of free time as I have graduated, so for the next few months I think simply abstaining from all things sexual will be borderline impossible. So im gonna try masturbating without porn during these months in order to make it easier. But at the end of the day I am going to make sure that I don't put nofap on a pedestal and just try my best until I find the right method.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2019
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  11. adio 22

    adio 22 New Fapstronaut

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    Yeah, I think that porn is the main problem, because you get wet dreams anyway, and when you just masturbate it doesn't give you the bad view of girls and stuff like that. If your feeling that your about to go and watch porn, maybe masturbating could help and reduce the urge. After few months or weeks of doing that you would be completely away from porn and probably not have as many urges, and then you could decide weather you want to keep on masturbate or quit completely.
     
  12. topjobm8two

    topjobm8two Fapstronaut

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    Some interesting points. I tried allowing m and got chased so haven't since.

    I'm spending most time trying to sort out other aspects of my life. Filling it with joyful activities.

    But if I just keep failing ( longest is 39 days), I'll need to try something new. And I will try. I'm concerned that m will just keep the dopamine paths active.
     
  13. Mr.Chips

    Mr.Chips Fapstronaut

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    To me no difference, eventually your body will become weaker and weaker until a single binge (that you orgasm only without Masturbation) will make you tired for a day or two. The short answer is You should stop it all at once. But if you want to know the difference between porn and masturbation biologically, then porn will effect the addict's mind much more and accelerate the fantasies and harms to his/her body.
     
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  14. Targaryenn

    Targaryenn Fapstronaut

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    Wow. This post is great. Saved!
    Thanks for this @Mr.Chips!
     
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  15. Jerky

    Jerky Fapstronaut

    For me, one thing leads to another and it all ends up in the same place:

    Shame, remorse, depression, and a new willingness to try again, often followed by the same results, over and over again.

    My addiction will always look for a single finger in order to gain a whole hand.

    Give it nothing and end the cycle.
    Starve it and it will die.
     
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  16. jobbyj

    jobbyj Fapstronaut

    Thanks Dan for your detailed reply and sparking others to engage to my original post.
    I was a bit worried about posting this because i felt the hardcore no pmo army would bash me.

    My experience is similar to yours - i have an issue with porn. I havent masturbated without porn for many a year. Agree that an ideal scenario is to get to a no pmo state, but i am also recovering from PIED so i "tested" it without porn, and there was some improvement at day 20, and day 25. I have since decided to try and not do that, more because as i come off familiarity with porn, i dont want to replace it with my hand. That being said, on day 25 (i am on day 31 now), i mastarbated without porn, purely because i felt really really weak and tired that day as i had gone through some personal emotional stuff, and i was worried i could lose my streak and watch porn. so i jerked without porn and having previous in real life sex memories as my visuals. On both occasions - no chaser effect.

    Its taken me 2 years of trialling with nofap to get here, and i feel confident in a new way that i am on this path now, but i just feel as a community we make it harder for some guys by saying dont jerk off, when their issue is just porn, not masturbation.

    once i am further along, i may engage in your natural masturbation, quite interested even but just feel i want to hit say 90 days and then experiment more.

    really glad you shared as did others, it really helps
    thank you
     
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  17. UnyieldingAntiHero

    UnyieldingAntiHero Fapstronaut

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    P is by far worse than MO. However, when you start out with your recovery, P is still inside your mind and your kopfkino (literally 'head cinema') will go off as an automated response.
    You'd best stay away from either for the fastest speed possible at recovery but don't fool yourself into watching porn and just not touching yourself. P is the abomination not mechanical up and down.
     
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  18. jobbyj

    jobbyj Fapstronaut

    thank you
    i agree with that
     
  19. I think that quitting porn is always the right thing to do. Quitting Orgasms is a matter of preference during our recovery - aimed on your own case. The body is made to have healthy sexual intercourse and when there are no issues during sexual intercourse then why would you quit that? Masturbation I believe is risky because it will often be linked with porn or it can be a substitute. I also believe that recovery isn’t black or white, there must be more ways to Rome and reducing the amount or just skipping porn can be various roads which in the end also leads to victory.
     
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  20. jobbyj

    jobbyj Fapstronaut

    I have broadly decided to quit both, but will masturbate to help ease the journey when and if needed

    want as much space between me and the porn

    day 33
     

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