I need a big favor - song analysis - Please...

This may get long. And personal. Some of this probably belongs in my journal, but I haven't been ready to discuss it and it flows naturally from this conversation, so I'm just putting a link to it in my journal.

Spent a few hours yesterday with L's family at an early Independence Day event. We didn't talk, but at least she wasn't still avoiding looking at me. In person I really can't perceive any attraction, but she is extremely guarded. Her young would-be suitor was there as well and I was reminded what an extreme momma's boy he is. Not an especially attractive quality. L can be a little clingy (not physically though) toward her mom, or sometimes a sibling, or even me on a couple of occasions when there was no one she knew better around. But not as much as this guy.

I wish I had real conversations with her that I could use to mention my wife, but neither of us talks much in general. Two reluctant talkers make for very little conversation. This is how we ended up in this evasive game. She does sometimes listen to my conversations with her mother though. And I'm afraid last night she may have heard me complaining about my wife misdirecting annoyance at me. Oops. I would love to see L going to a helpful therapist, but my own experiences give me little hope. Her family cannot afford it, so she would end up going to MHMR, one of the places I had negative experiences. Also, all of her siblings would find out about it, and spread it to everyone they know. They can be cruel and merciless. It's no wonder she hides it.

As far as depression, I am much more sure of that than I am of her having a crush on me. She seems so much like me in her introversion, quiet nature, social awkwardness, self consciousness, artistic tastes, modesty. Her guarded manner is just how I was as a teen when I could still conceal my depression from my family. Her mother wonders why she just leaves her artwork lying around to get ruined, but I understand it. L herself might not realize quite what her issues are; at that age I thought of it as "just how I am." I can recall my own mood issues extending as far back as second grade. I once saw a picture of L on Facebook at about six or seven years old. Her expression gave me shivers. I know what it feels like to wear that expression. No child should feel that way. Her family would just see that pic as "That's our L. So serious," but I saw something much deeper.

I'm still reluctant to bring my wife any further into the conversation. I don't think I could convince her of L's mood issues as she wouldn't really get this song thing. Her own nature is to bottle things up completely and then explode all at once. If I did convince her she would go straight to the mother and L would completely withdraw. As far as the attraction thing, she's likely at this point to see it as a wish-fulfilling fantasy for reasons I'll come back to. She already has trust issues. In Spring of 2013 she was convinced that the then ten year old sister was trying to seduce me. This was definitively not so and my wife now understands that. That was a very difficult time.

I would like to think that she will readily move on from this (potential) crush, but I had a strong crush on one girl from eighth through eleventh grade. Four years. And L is so much like me... On the other hand I suspect her mother also had a brief crush on me last year, based mainly on the fatherly way I am with her children, while she was particularly feeling the absence of her husband. So maybe she'll take after mom and get over it.

I've seen part of Juno, maybe I'll go watch it all. I love American Beauty but actually had to turn that movie off the other day because it is triggering for me. (Movie spoilers ahead) I like that in that one, even though the infatuation is mutual, he realizes that he doesn't actually need the "conquest" and then dies happy. Watched part of Crazy,Stupid Love recently. (My wife watched more than I did.) It's complicated but part of it is a seventeen year old in love with the father of the boy who is in love with her. I think reconciling with his wife (and the girl's father finding out) is what convinced the girl to move on. I also love the underrated movie Ghost World. In it there's an odd relationship that turns into a one night stand between a teenage girl and a middle age man. However, in this case the girl is just being impulsive and it's the man who wants more. And the teenage girl is actually the character I identify with throughout the movie. Anyway, enough with the film review section.

Now the really personal stuff. (Some of which may lead to some backlash, but c'est la vie.) The irony does not escape me that there are so many younger guys on here who can't get a girl, yet here I am married and now with a teenage girl possibly pursuing me that I must refuse. And it really strikes a chord in me to have anyone pursue me at this point. My wife is the only partner or even girlfriend I've ever had. This has been a real issue for me for the last 15 months or so, since I traumatically discovered that her own past was far more extensive than she had led me to believe for twenty-three and a half years. There's even more to that story, but I'm trying to stick to what feels relevant here. Anyway, I now regret my chaste past - not for missing out so much as for having absolutely no perspective of what it is to even have a past relationship. And except for the nagging little problem that it would destroy my relationship, I think having a fling would help me to understand so much better. In reality I'm not entirely sure I could do that even if my wife suggested it. And certainly not with an underage girl. Which is another issue. Jailbait was my problem fetish that led me into actual porn addiction. It feels as if the universe is deliberately testing the sincerity of my boundaries. Well, I won't budge. In six weeks she won't technically be jailbait in this state anymore (after our shared birthday - a crazy coincidnce) but it could still ruin my life in several more ways. And would leave her nothing but regret.

 

Thank you, Rewired.
I'm not sure anyone will keep reading this at this point, but I need to record my thoughts on this for my own sake and I might as well keep them together.

I should have noticed sooner than no one else commented on or +1'd the heart drawing. Even her mother didn't respond to it or repost it to Facebook. Very unusual. It's entirely possible that she only shared it with me.

I'm going to write here with the assumption that my new perception is accurate.

Thinking back through things, I have come to another realization. I think I may have accidentally led her on. She likely thinks I am attracted to her in that same way. And it's my fault. The possibility of her having feelings for me crossed my mind several times but I always dismissed it out of hand as absurd and didn't consider it in my further actions. The first song she "liked" that I really strongly suspected was directed at me was Cage the Elephant - Come a Little Closer which contains the lyric "At first you were my father, now I love you like a brother." This was so exactly what I wanted to hear that I let it dominate my expectations ever since and did not allow any other interpretation. As well as wanting to help her, I was so desperate for a confidant for myself that the possibility that I could build that relationship with her kept me from considering what else she might seeking. And it's not just in this song game that I may have misled her. For example, when she made some yarn bracelets that seemed inspired by ones I had made myself, I responded by making some emulating hers. Her vegetarianism was an influence in me deciding to return to the practice, but she could easily ascribe more meaning to that than it actually holds. I do adore this girl and I have come to understand how easily a teenage mind could misinterpret the nature of that adoration.

So now I'm faced with a very difficult situation. I don't know whether it is kinder to shatter this illusion or let it be. For me, perceiving that I seem stupid is one of the worst possible feelings. (And I have it now.) Avoiding this risk is part of why I limit my social interaction so much. If the same holds true for her (and I'm confident it does) then realizing that she's misread me and feeling that she's acted foolishly combined with the discovery that her romantic feelings are unrequited may be worse than feeling the loss of a perceived mutual love that's thwarted by fate. But if I let her continue in that belief, then we will necessarily maintain distance and will never become the confidants that I wish we could. If she ever chose to act on it I would be forced to choose between rejecting her with the truth or rejecting her with a lie that let her think I just couldn't act on my own feelings but let her feel justified. Either would create more distance. If I knew how to talk to her to resolve this, I wouldn't have gotten into this situation to begin with. I'm guessing I'll have to handle it on September 27th if I don't do anything before. That's the date of the concert I have tickets for that I think she wants me to take her to (because I've complained that my wife and daughter don't really want to go). If she continues to hint that she wants to go, I do intend to invite her. We've been out late alone together before, but she's probably gained confidence from our song game. I don't want to hurt her, but probably the most damaging thing I could do would be to give in to her attraction.

I can't believe I have let this happen. It's entirely my fault, I should have been more responsible. The thought that I have hurt her and will hurt her further is making me physically ill. I saw her briefly earlier, while dropping off three of her siblings at their home and picking up another. She's back to conspicuously ignoring me. Just as well, I could barely look at her.

I'm sorry, L.

 

I don't have time now, but I just want to confirm that I will respond to these posts in detail in a day or two.

And I can report that I am working through these issues internally at least and am no longer agonizing over every interaction. "Every little thing gonna be alright."

 

*sigh*
Still no time to give real replies. There's too much crap piling up IRL that I have to tend to (well, some of it I can't really do anything about except worry). Some of it is my own chronic procrastination catching up to me. I guess I should view it as a good sign that I'm restructuring my priorities and not putting this forum or this subject before these other things. But I will find time to get back to this.

 

I once had a astrology enthusiast coworker correctly tell me out of the blue that she could tell I was a Leo. It tripped me out because I don't think I fit the supposed Leo profile. Apparently by sidereal astrology I would be a Cancer which actually makes more sense to me. Anyway...

Now it's time for the hard questions and soul-searching. I realize now much of this is not appropriate for such a public forum, even anonymously, but it's too late. It would feel dishonest to not continue the conversation or make it private now. (I also now see that I have been rather melodramatic and have probably blown this out of all proportion. I partially blame the changes going on in my brain due to nofap. My brain chemistry has always been unbalanced even in the absence of addiction, so transition especially messes with me.)

I do have problems with understanding limits of acceptability. But I think it comes from general social ineptitude rather than my addiction. It's not limited to young girls, but that's where it causes the most concern, obviously. I feel it would be enlightening to talk about L's 11 year old sister, my favorite from their family. For convenience, I will call her C. C became fond of me while I was teaching her grade level at church in Autumn 2012 (remember I'm in the northern hemisphere) and in turn became my favorite kid in the class. By mid Spring 2013 she began to absolutely treat me like a father. My daughter was a extreme daddy's girl, but is now an adult. I have a young son, but he's a momma's boy (and I have a preference for girls anyway - wife prefers boys, so it works out). C is very different from my daughter but elicited the same feelings and I hadn't realized how badly I missed having a little daddy's girl. To this day, I would keep C as my own child in an instant. Problems arose though because C was a very affectionate child. My wife became convinced that C was attempting to seduce me and I was going along with it. This was a result of distrust because of my addiction (even though she said she believed my boundaries) and her projecting onto C her own past - a pubescent urgency to become sexually active (which I had only fully discovered recently). I pointed out to her that although C was physically an early bloomer, C was mentally a child in no hurry to grow up and her behavior was exactly that of an affectionate child to her father. And C was not exposed to the same peer or sibling pressures about sex that she was. C's mother is a survivor of extended sexual abuse and very attuned to signs of abuse and never had any objection to our interaction which was in no way suppressed in her presence. C's mother did worry about C's behavior in the future. She once said, "Imagine if at 14 she acts with someone else the way she does with you." That did concern me because I do realize that not everyone has boundaries as strong as mine. On the few occasions I felt C crossed a line of acceptability, I set clear limits. Still my wife insisted that C's behavior was extremely inappropriate although she was completely unable to answer questions about what she thought limits should be. She also refused to give guidance in real time, instead suppressing her discomfort until it built into screaming rages. Eventually she was able to overcome her own issues enough to help me understand that even though our interactions were perfectly acceptable for father and daughter, C was simply not my daughter and other people who knew us could misinterpret the situation with disastrous results. I had some serious talks with C and redefined our limits, while still leaving room for some minor affection. However even that has disappeared now. I think C became rather self-conscious as she continued to physically mature (as kids do), but I also strongly suspect her siblings may have teased her into ceasing the last of her affection out of jealousy of my favoritism. (And the way I see their family dynamic, L was probably the worst offender.) None of the actions or misunderstanding was actually driven by a skewed perspective from my addiction. I have a benevolent non-sexual fondness for young girls which long predates my fetish or even my sexual awakening as a youth. It exists as a separate thing in my mind from my fetish and they act independently. At the time when C was still most affectionate (and I was in my first nofap period), she was, on one occasion, very careless in a skirt (in a fairly public place. My wife witnessed it as well and even she did not suspect it was deliberate). I was fascinated to discover that it actually took me several seconds to even realize that I had been exposed to a potential trigger (yes, I shamefully admit that my fetish could sometimes run that young). Had C been a girl I didn't know, the view almost certainly would have caused me to relapse, but I felt no arousal at all. (And I was not flatlining.) Hopefully all this helps illustrate why I don't think my jailbait fetish is to blame for this situation.

Now there is definitely some possibility of this. I do believe that she has similar issues to mine, but the idea that she is in pressing need of or is ready for someone to talk to about it may only come from my own desperate wish for a confidant. And every real confidant I've ever had has been a girl younger than me (although never this much younger before) because that's who I've found that I relate to.

I do worry about my wife's perception but as I described above, her perceptions can be heavily distorted. If I could definitively tell her that yes, L has depression and anxiety and wants to discuss it with me, my wife would be supportive. But short of that I can't be sure how she would respond. As far as L's mother, she would either overwhelm L trying to talk about it (and my mother was about the last person I wanted to talk to about it) or force her into counselling which I know I would have resented.

Actually, another possibility occurred to me. She may not have real feelings for me at all, but think that I do for her. Things like the heart drawing could be a flirtatious tease simply because she's enjoying the attention without reciprocating the perceived emotions. If this were the case, I would be happy to let the misunderstanding stand. I am perfectly willing to be her ego boost.

I don't know of anyone else around her except the one young guy who might understand her perspective. Perhaps he is all the confidant she needs.

The point of inviting her would be that I don't know anyone else who would actually want to see this band. And while she has allowed us to buy her tickets for a couple of cheaper events and accepted a more expensive one when we unexpectedly had extra, I'm not sure she would be comfortable with me getting another ticket for this so that she could go.

Yes, this is what triggers the realization that the encounter is not something he actually needs or wants. The fact that I didn't emphasize that aspect the way you did might actually result from the fact that I was deep in my addiction the first time I watched that movie. :\ Still, I think his contentment is not just a result of having done the right thing but also of having been "deemed worthy" by the object of his infatuation. (But no, that is NOT a compliment I want from L.)

It's one of those convoluted stories where everything interconnects in unexpected ways, but pretty mindless entertainment.

So to conclude this monster post, my current plan is to just ease off and leave things up to her. I think I've made it abundantly clear that I understand her emotional issues and am available for her. I'll wait for her to decide she needs to talk and let me know. It won't be easy for her, but I think she can do it if she needs to. If she keeps hinting that she wants to go the concert, I will invite her. I will be much more conscious of and clear with my signals. If she were to actually make some sort of advance, I will be clear and honest with her.

EDIT: BTW, I didn't mean to make you my therapist, but you keep asking all the right questions. I can't tell you how much I appreciate this discussion. Thanks again.

 

I seem to have given you a misleading impression (I sense a pattern here) of my spirituality. I am really not Christian in the mainstream sense. I do consider myself to be what my wife calls a Jesus-follower. Our church is Unitarian Universalist. (L's family has attended UU churches longer than we have.) It's not common in Australia. It looks like the closest congregation to you is four and a half hours away in Perth and only meets twice a month. Anyway, the denomination was formed from the merger of two offshoots of Christianity, but has evolved to be much more encompassing. I have personally met Christians, atheists, Wiccans, Pagans, Buddhists and probably some others who are members of our church, and I know that elsewhere there are many other faiths represented within ours. Our minster is fond of saying that ours is a faith bound together not by what we believe but by how treat each other based on what we believe. We take pride in respecting each individual's unique spiritual journey. I might, however, be able to help her find direction through involvement in something like our social justice programs. I could most effectively do that if I became a youth advisor, but I have quite a commitment to the even younger education program.

Trying to wean a teen off of popular culture is not a task I think I can undertake. (Or even myself at this point.) She does have an appreciation for finer arts as well. And I definitely don't idealize that kind of relationship. I think they are almost always mistakes, but I try not to pre-judge. I do have an uncle who has been married for something over 20 years to a significantly younger woman who was under 18 when he started dating her, but they are a rare exception.

That said, I definitely do appreciate your input and enjoy our discussions.

 

I think my response to Rewired covers the first part of this pretty well, but I feel like I should address this:

I am conscious of the fantasy aspect of porn and when not flooded with dopamine am very aware of the abuse, extortion, and economic exploitation that produced most of the material I used.

I really don't suspect that I would ever find another relationship superior to or even comparable to what I have. My insecurity really results from not understanding how she feels about (all) those other guys compared to me. She says the time she's been with me should be enough to prove the difference, but as far as I know, I could just be the one who didn't leave. After all, she tried the same deception with her last boyfriend before me (unfortunately that doesn't mean her last partner before me). I exercised years of discipline to offer myself fully as a gift to the right person. But in order to accept her own past, she devalues chastity and can't even truly appreciate that gift. And since I was in some way committed to our relationship before we even met, I feel a weird (illogical? unjustified?) sort of right to ownership of the same part of her life, but she is unable to truly open up and share that part of her life with me. I would not trade our relationship, but I would in an instant trade in my past that set me up to feel cheated.

EDIT: I forgot to point out that I don't have any close friends I would be comfortable talking with this about. (The ones I had online that I thought I could talk to let me down )And my past experiences with counselling have left me with essentially a phobia of the concept.

 

I forgot to add something in the long response to Rewired. I tried to edit it in, but it pushed the post over the 10000 character limit. Never expected to find that out.

Anyway, I forgot to add that during the summer after C and I became so close, my wife eventually retracted all of her accusations and no longer interferes with C and me. She doesn't even object to us being alone. C is also my son's best friend and she often stays over at our house (as do some of her siblings). She was friends with my son first, but it was her friendship with me that really drew our families together.

EDIT: If anyone wants to comment or ask questions again in this thread, I am perfectly willing to respond here. Other than that, anything else I have to say on these subjects will be in my journal. Starting with a post right now.