Maturity

i loved it , this hits home , i been with so many women it has distorted my view on them and loving them. no longer will i be a "boy" this makes so much sense

 

The message of being a little more mature is ok. The stuff about women ruling over men, and this isn't the way it should be is...misguided. "Being the man" and providing is also...off. Women are very capable of providing, and some men are still men when they're caregivers or stay-at-home dads or whatever - they're still men.
So be mature, be responsible, be accountable, and develop yourself - yes; but your value as a man is your ability to put a down-payment on a car or a house? No.

 

I wish this would have been "drilled" into me when I was a teenager!
My wife and I have had a hard marriage, because I wasn't man enough to take care of her the way I should have.

 

I've heard that guy, Paul Washer speak several times, and he usually is fairly hard towards the men in general and very very lenient towards women as if it is generally the man's fault if the relationship goes sour.
Biblically speaking, I agree that the man is the priest, and the head of his household. As it says in the bible, "to much is given much is required." A man has a lot of responsibility from working and still have time for his kids and wife. A man has a huge impact if he is not involved with his children. I researched this back in.... 85% of men in prison have never seen their father. Women who grew up without a father have identity issues and that is why they go from men to men looking for that was missing when growing up.
I believe the hardest command in the bible is, "Love your wife as Christ love the Church," because Jesus died for his church.

But women are not saints as the media and Paul Washer portrays them. I could give examples, but that would be off the topic.

 

And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
In the book of Genesis we see that the woman enticed the man to eat of the "forbidden" fruit. I can tell you from my own experience that there have been times when my wife sucked me into situations where we shouldn't have gone, but I had allowed her to convince and "entice" me. As men we have to have "integrity" and treat women as the "weaker vessel". They are mainly emotion-based in their decision-making.
"...ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel..."
So yes, we owe them honor and also the love that is equal to Christ's love for the church, but we are still supposed to be "men", and we have to answer to God first!

 

I agree on that. Another thing is the struggle for control in a relationship. Since God's intention is for the husband to be the head, "Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you." Genesis 3:16. In some relationships, the woman wears the "pants" and the man is very passive. I know my ex-wife who had borderline personality disorder along with Narcissistic personality disorder (Jezebel) who always wanted her way or nothing at all. Constantly want to fight because she can not get her way. She was always very controlling by manipulating, lying, always playing the victim and would even be physically and verbally abusive to me and I would not put up with that.

 

Eph 5:23 "For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior." Now being the head does not imply superiority. It is about leadership. Headship is not upon power or control, but upon love and care. Headship focuses on nurture and protection, not domination—on self-sacrifice, not selfish demands.

 

Before people crap all over women for eating the fruit, ask yourself this: where was Adam?
There's no mention of Eve searching for Adam, or running around trying to persuade him, only "She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it." Gen 2:6b
He was right there, and did nothing! Adam was present for all of the serpent's conversation, and he said nothing! If you were Adam, you'd have done the same thing, and if you were Eve, you'd have eaten the fruit. That's what the fallen-ness of humanity is.

And saying women make their decisions primarily off emotion is not only wrong, it's incredibly sexist! Women have a different view of the world because their experience of it is different than a "typical" male (if anything can, indeed, be typical), and their decisions are based off that experience. The same patterns of reasoning guide their thought as ours, because - and this might be shocking - they are human too.

Oh, and if you're going to quote Ephesians 5:23, you may want to keep reading, because the second part of that passage is far too often forgotten. In it, Paul says precisely the mirror of what he said before: not only should wives submit to their husbands, but husbands should also submit to their wives. How else do you think Jesus loved the church? It's a surprisingly egalitarian and feminist viewpoint, especially when you consider 1st century society, or pretty much any society.

Also, be careful to not use post-Fall occurrences to explain God's ideal - nothing that occurs after the Fall is God's ideal. Rather, look to the Garden pre-Fall or see the way Jesus lives for a view of what God's ideal is. Men and women were created equally, complimentary. Eve was created from Adam's rib ("tsela" - a word often translated as "rib" in Genesis, but for all but one other occurrence of it in the Bible is translated as "side") so she would neither be above nor below, and so that she was made from the same “stuff” - every bit as perfect a creation as man and every bit as patterned after God’s image and likeness. This is affirmed in Adam's recognition of her: "bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh!" which is a really poetic way of saying "hey - she's like me!" Women should be treated as the image of God that they are, and it is men who have to decide to treat them this way.

 

As I replied in the other thread.. While we are still the head of the home.. We still wash feet like Christ did. This is not to say that we are becoming submissive - far from it ! And yes, as stated in this thread and my experience also, woman think with emotion, men with logic - if we allow the 'weaker' to control then we will walk toward the fire and be sacrificing our family, kids, finances etc. I have a very manipulative and controlling wife who tries to be dominant allot of the time. I can fight or pray - I pray ! And our relationship is evolving to a better place. When I show Love (as Christ did) - She sees the error of her ways (may take weeks or months - but she does).

Stay Blessed My Brother in Christ !

 

I love your post, and I totally agree. Some people on this thread are a little "sensitive", and this comes from our culture, not the Bible. The relationship between husband and wife is explained clearly in the Scriptures. Of course both have equal worth, of course both need to submit to one another etc. However, we are different and have different roles. Can a man give birth to children? Obviously not! Does the average man have more muscle mass than the average woman? Of course. And there are many more differences that are quite obvious. Guess what? God made us that way for a reason. There are different roles also. The man, by God's design, is the head in the family. End of story! Where most of us men have failed is "to love our wives the way Christ loves the church"! I am guilty, and I know a lot of my failures have come from my long struggle with lust. Let's unite as Christian brothers and support each other to overcome PMO and love our wives, families and neighbors the way we should!

 

This is not Christian anthropology, it's from both my personal experience and many years of studying the female psychology.

But we still have to ask ourselves why the fruit was never offered to Adam directly?
Blessings.

 

I wouldn't say that the way women make decisions generally is "inferior", just different, and that's not in all cases anyways. There have been many examples in history where women have been in ruling positions, and have ruled justly. However, I believe that God has designed man and woman to compliment each other, and quite often we don't allow that to happen. Our Creator has designated the man as the "head" over the family, nonetheless. Our current culture is trying to undermine this, no doubt! Many women have taken advantage of this cultural trend and tried to take over this role! It's not God's design. In any form of government, there is an executive power that has the final say typically, and in the case of the family, God has designated the man. This does not IN ANY WAY diminish the worth or importance of the woman. Again, if, as men we abuse this position, then we screw things up. My addiction to PMO has been the cause of many hardships in my marriage, and my wife does have some valid grievances, but she also has a tendency to go with the "cultural" flow of things, and doesn't forgive very easily, and also tries to compete with me over headship.
"...whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God." James 4:4
We are called to follow God's standard despite what the culture of the world says.

 

Have you been reading the Bible? You really should get into it more...Jesus was all about being sensitive - recognising the value of individuals and building them up, caring for others, and challenging them to think deeper about their beliefs.

See, where? 'cause I have a feeling you mean in Genesis 3 or Ephesians 5. Genesis 3 is after the fall (see below), and Ephesians 5 has two passages which mirror each other, where the wife should submit to her husband, and her husband should give himself up for the wife. Lemme ask you this: what do you think "give himself up" means? If you truly love someone as you love yourself, what does that look like? How often would you get "your way" in that situation? How much would your will be done? Why would you "rule over" them?

Look at the wife in Proverbs 31 - what was her role? What was the role of her husband? She is more than capable as an individual. And if someone want to attract someone like her, he must become someone like her. There were no roles in the Garden, other than caretaker and being fruitful and that was both of their jobs!

Yes, he really did!
So here's the part where I make you shift uncomfortably in your chairs:
All creation teaches us about the Creator, yes? And God designed us to reflect himself:
"Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals," and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”
So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them."

Note how it says "He created them." Something about the plurality of man reflects God, they way man interacts together. It's why Man being alone is "not good." You can see it when Jesus prays "that they may be one as We are one." It's there, too, in the way the members of the church interact makes up Christ's body - many parts, one body. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit makes up God. Husband, wife, and God makes a family. God, using the plural to refer to himself, says "let us make mankind in our image" and the "us" creates man and woman. So, too, does a husband and wife create little likenesses of their own. To do this a man enters a woman and leaves his seed behind, which grows to new life - amazing! How great is God! The Holy Spirit enters into our lives and grows into new life and we are born again. God is good! The Bible is littered with sexual language when God and Jesus talk about redemption. "Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit." (Jn 3:6). Jesus' whole conversation with Nicodemus uses sexual language. Christ has entered into your life and left his seed in you. Though it may be small like a mustard seed, it will grow and become a tree, so that the birds of the air will come and lodge in its branches. And you will give birth to new life in Him.

No, again, God's design is equality. The Jewish interpretations found in the Midrash even talk about how Adam may have been divided in two (like a cell), so women contain what is needed for Man to be complete. God talking about how the husband will rule over his wife occurs after the Fall, which very, very clearly is not part of God's original design. God allows it, God works with it, but it is not his original plan for us in the Garden.

Where were you when the earth’s foundation were laid?
Tell me, if you understand.
Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it...?

IT WAS! Don't you get it? The reason you have sin is because, under then same circumstances with the same body, same mind, same offer, same information presented to Adam and Eve, YOU'D DO THE SAME THING! Adam was there, the offer was made to him. Don't pull that bullshit "it's the woman you gave me" nonsense - if you insist on it, here is God's response for you:
“Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat food from it
all the days of your life.
It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field.
By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return.”

 

Wow! I'm not sure what your point is in all this, but I can tell you that nobody here on this thread sees women as anything LESS than a man, if that is what you're debating, then you are reading more into the previous statements than what was actually being said.
The main reason that we are all here is to support each other in our battle with PMO, not argue with each other! There is plenty of debate over Christian doctrine, my friend, but that isn't the reason why I signed on here.
Let us encourage each other to love our wives, spouses etc. the way we should and through Christ and with the help of the Holy Spirit overcome this terrible sin that we have in our lives!
I do appreciate your passion, my brother! Take that passion and use it to help your brothers beat PMO!

 

You are asking a really good question. One that required research and a lot of thought. ...Then I got caught up in end of term and start of practicum and did not post the things I knew and had discovered.

There is a lot packed into so few verses. To explain it, there are two things I'd like to discuss about how the Bible is written, and therefore, how we should read it, and then I'd like to take you through "submission," Christ's example, and what is meant by the word "head" (Greek: "kephale").

Firstly, Jesus talks in pictures. So many people want a clear "do this, don't do that" step by step guide, but that's not how Jesus talks. In fact, when people ask him legalistic questions, Jesus' responses encourage the asker to go beyond the precepts of Scripture to get at the principle. "Anyone who says to his brother "raca" has committed murder." One time, after giving a key concept in this story form, his disciples actually ask him why he doesn't just speak plainly (Mt 13:10). Jesus' answer is, essentially, "because it's more valuable of you have to discover it," to which all his disciples are all, "what the gehanna does that mean?" This visual, metaphorical style is how Paul, being both the good Pharisee and follower of Jesus that he is, speaks as well. It is very easy to want a very literal, legalistic meaning from the Bible. Jesus says go deeper.

Secondly, the verse numbers, headings, and paragraph breaks in our Bibles were added later in a bid to make it easier to find and reference specific verses. This is good, because it makes some things easier, but because of it we too often miss the way the sections and arguments flow together and build on each other. Your Bible very likely has a heading before verse 22 - "Husbands and Wives," right?
Now read verse 21.

The ideas presented in Eph 5:22-33 did not have a break before them, no title, nothing. They immediately followed on the heels of verse 21: submit - to whom? - "submit to one another out of love for Christ." Verse 21 is the thesis statement: submit to each other: wives submit to your husbands, husbands be Christ to your wives. There is a parallel structure in the way the verses are written and the demands Paul is placing on his readers. It's also worth noting that Paul takes more time to explain it to the men in the room (6 verses as opposed to 3), as if they might have a harder time understanding it. But verses 21 and 33 bookend the passage and denote how both parts (husbands and wives) are equal.

This is what the verses 21-24 look like with a word-for-word translation from the Greek: "[21] submitting yourselves to one another in reverence of Christ [22] the Wives to the own husbands as to the Lord [23] for [the] husband is head [kephale, see below] of the wife as also Christ [is the] head of the church he himself Savior of the body [24] But even as the church is subjected to Christ so also wives to their own husbands in everything"

In these verses, Paul is explaining the implications of the teachings of Jesus. Here is a fascinating excerpt from an article detailing the use and definition of "hypotasso" - the "submit" in verse 21 (which is the same "submit" in 2 Pt 2:18, "servants submit to your masters").

For centuries now, it has been taught that wives are to submit to their husbands. It has also been taught that the husband is the servant leader of his wife. But Jesus never taught submission for wives; nor did He teach servant leadership for husbands. He simply taught servant hood for all. Now, the reason why Christ did not teach submission for wives was because He taught that submission was to God – for no one can serve two masters. Indeed, if a woman submits to her husband in everything, then she submits to God in nothing. Likewise, the reason why Christ did not teach servant leadership for husbands was because He taught that One is our leader, Christ – for no one can serve two masters. Indeed, if One is a wife’s leader, and that leader is her husband, then Christ cannot be her leader. Therefore, it is clear from the teachings of Christ, that the doctrine of submission [from one person to another] is a false doctrine. It is a teaching of man and not of God. www.womanthegloryofman.com/pdfs/hypotasso-part-1.pdf ​

In addition, when one considers what a servant-like submission is, it bears a striking resemblance to "agape" love, which is used in a conjugated form - agapate - in verses 25-33! This further demonstrates the equal and parallel structure of the passage. These verses in Ephesians are a call for us to follow the example of Christ. And Christ's example is this:

Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross! (Phil 2:6-8)​

Another really important thing about Jesus' example of love is found in 1 Co 13:5: "Love is not self-seeking." Another way to say this is "Love does not seek its own will." Jesus (and therefore God), rather than imposing his will on people, constantly invites and constantly woos them into relationship. Jesus, our perfect husband, calls us, pursues us, welcomes us - but never does he dominate or restrict our ability to make decisions. Though Jesus is in control he is not controlling. We, as men, are called to follow this example in our relationships.

To add to this, have a look at how Wood, D.R.W., & Marshall, I.H. define "headship" in the New Bible Dictionary (3rd ed. - retrieved here https://livingchurch.org/covenant/2...-the-wife-wrestling-the-elephant-in-the-room/) :

“The head (Heb. rù’š; Gk. kephalē is not regarded as the seat of the intellect, but as the source of life (Mt. 14:8, 11; Jn. 19:30). Thus to lift up the head is to grant life in the sense of success (Jdg. 8:28; Ps. 27:6; Gn. 40:13, but cf. the pun in v. 19), or to expect it in God himself (Ps. 24:7, 9; Lk. 21:28). To cover the head by the hand or with dust and ashes is to mourn the loss of life (2 Sa. 13:19; La. 2:10). Figuratively, headship denotes superiority of rank and authority over another (Jdg. 11:11; 2 Sa. 22:44); though when Christ is spoken of as head of his body the church (Eph. 5:23; Col. 2:19), of every man (1 Cor. 11:3), of the entire universe (hyper panta, Eph. 1:22), and of every cosmic power (Col. 2:10), and when man is spoken of as the head of the woman (1 Cor. 11:3; Eph. 5:23; cf. Gn. 2:21f.), the basic meaning of head as the source of all life and energy is predominant.” (Emphasis mine).​

These, then, are the things to consider when reading this passage:

1. Throughout his ministry Jesus lovingly challenges people to go deeper and to look at the principles behind the precepts.
2. Verses 21 and 33 open and close the passage - they are the introduction and conclusion - and therefore everything contained between them are illustrations, examples, or explanations of those two statements.
3. If the wife's leader is the husband, then she cannot be led by God. "For no one can serve two masters" (Mt 6:24). Rather, Jesus teaches servanthood for all.
4. Christ's example of servanthood is the giving of himself in purest agape love.
5. Christ is the kephale - head - source of life and energy in the church, as a husband should be a source of life and energy for his wife.

Knowing these, how, then, should a husband treat his wife?

If you would like to delve into the topic more and learn more about what it means, I would highly recommend these two sermons:
http://www.themeetinghouse.com/teac...ust-and-loyalty/week-1-being-male-female-5929
http://www.themeetinghouse.com/teaching/archives/2018/three-beautiful-words/how-to-see-god-6086

Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. (1Jn 4:11)