Philsophical/Moral Dimensions

Discussion in 'Rebooting - Porn Addiction Recovery' started by Morrow, Feb 26, 2014.

  1. Morrow

    Morrow Fapstronaut

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    I wanted to make a thread where you could post philsophical or moral reasons to quit fapping, because in some situations that were the only reasons that could hold me back.
    I was raised liberal and atheist, I was never restricted in my sexuality (first contact with porn at the age of 10, first masturbation to orgasm at the age of 16, which may be a bit late).

    But I still have this strong feeling about PMO being a wrong thing, which, to me, says that the refusal of PMO is as much a natural drive for some of us as the thing itself. So, before finding this forum I found many answers like: Its a natural thing, everyone does it, you have to get rid of your bad feelings about it. But that argument "everyone does it" (90 percent or so) had a reversed effect on me: I was disgusted by this image. Imagine all the people fapping today. Politicians, professors, judges, policemen, actors, brothers, fathers... all the respectable persons in the world. And the moral now is: if youre digusted by the imagination of them fapping, make a start and quit yourself. You could say: I harm noone by fapping, but as shown, thats not true. All these people harm me, because they disgust me. And surely not only me. And if I fap, Im part of the problem. The only way to tackle the problem are individual decisions. Everytime you want to fap, ask yourself: Is that, what I want for me right now something I want for everybody, even my greatest idols? If no, you have the choice: Either be a morally consequent person, or not.

    So, this was my first thought. If someone is interested, others will follow. Now Im interested in your thoughts. Post them.
     
  2. spartan76

    spartan76 Fapstronaut

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    This is a really good question. I will get back to it, but I cannot think straight now, my brain is malfunctioning because I have fapped about 2 hours ago, and it's night time. I guess my first reason for now is that it negatively affects your brain the same way addictive drugs, over eating, watching too much television for many hours, and alcohol is able to.
     
  3. Saserman

    Saserman Fapstronaut

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    I have many reasons to quit fapping, porn and masturbation. Some of these reasons are religious, but I'll not mention them here. I hope I'm doing this right, as I'm not much of a philosopher

    1. Life is full of wonders. Lots of things to see, and lots of people to meet. Fapping is a waste of what precious limited time we have. We get nothing out of it except 10 minutes of satisfaction.

    2. The human body does not need fapping. It can take care of sexually energy naturally on its own through the use of wet dreams. This makes fapping unnecessary and redundant and also a waste, because sexually energy can be used for far more than PMO

    3. To some people, a man is supposed to be strong, both in the mind and in the body. Because fapping is an addiction and is shown to reduce interest in real women and reduce confidence and self discipline,, a man who faps isn't strong in the mind as he should be.
     
  4. IamAddict

    IamAddict Fapstronaut

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    Its just my day 15,but no PMO means to me like, I am not a slave of my own mind, and now i have lot of time to do things which i have never tried or procrastinated always.
    The most important thing to me is when i abstain from PMO for some time, i can feel the value of relations(Family,friends,colleagues)in my life.
     
  5. pursuitofchocolate

    pursuitofchocolate Fapstronaut

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    I think this is a great forum. I wholeheartedly agree with both of you. I think that by allowing myself to engage in this act I make my neural circuits want this more. As if, there are not a billion other things that my mind could potentially concentrate on. I feel like it restricts you from thinking outside of the box if you really were addicted.

    Also I find it refreshing to hear you say that with a liberal background and with ALL the websites out there Saying this is natural/everyone does it-you still find this to be disgusting. I liked reading that because at times I feel like, "okay is my religion always going to make me feel bad about things? I just want to be a laid back person and not worry/get down about so many things." But to hear that you also find this to be reprehensible just..idk made me feel that yes, this is something worth getting over no matter if it's for religious or scientific or other reasons.
     
  6. nobingeing

    nobingeing Fapstronaut

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    wow! great reminders to let us know why we joined nofap in the first place.

    Very strong convictions here!

    Personally, one of the reasons i wanted to quit was because i wanted to build up my self discipline and i figured if i could break a bad habit first, then i would have the self discipline to cultivate good ones.

    Ive been trying to sleep regularly and eat regularly but fail time and again, beacuse these are habits that you have to DO something, thus i figured if i NOT DO something first then the time spent doing that bad thing becomes time spent doing something good (hope i am making sense here haha) then i would have good habits!

    Push on fellow fapstronauts!^^
     
  7. Morrow

    Morrow Fapstronaut

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    Thank you all very much for answering.

    @pursuitofchocolate: Im glad I could help you with this. Its very true what you say. And I think the prohibition of PMO isnt in religion for no reason, but because people in the past thought exactly what we are thinking today, its a totally natural thought. There are religious and unreligious people who dont fight bad habits, and there are religious and unreligious people who do fight their bad habits. The only thing that matters is wether youre willing to become a better person. Religion can help you for sure, just like this forum can help you very much, but more important is your own attitude.

    @IamAddict: What you said about being a slave of your own mind is very interesting. And brings me to a new excursion. The question I asked myself several years ago was: Who is the slave? Because there are two ways of looking at the human drives. Human drives evolved over time and therefore are not perfectly fitting to their purpose (the sexuality drive doesn’t automatically lead to procreation).
    You can now either say “oh great, sexuality doesn’t have to result in babies” so that you willingly lead your drive away from its purpose, or you say “oh no, im manipulated by a drive that doesn’t even has a purpose” so that you use your willpower and quit.
    Now we have a dilemma, both positions seem to make sense, both are based on the same situation, both seem to be a victory of Will over nature… but they are complete contraries. In the first one, are you slave or master? Is the drive using you, or are you using the drive? In the second one, would it be willpower to quit, or would it be willpower to overcome your bad feelings about it and use the drive for YOURE purpose? Its really hard to tell and you might be a bit confused by now.
    But there is an answer indeed. It has to do with craving and reward. It many cases, craving and reward are in a balance. Your demand for something is appropriate to the reward you expect, that’s reasonable and logical. In this cases its really hard to tell whether your the master or the slave of your mind. But there are also disbalanced cases. And for me, PMO is one: the craving for it is far bigger than the reward I expect and get. That’s irrational. But the disbalance can also be on the other side: Think about doing sports or something. You know that you will be happy having done it, but youre absolutely unmotivated nevertheless.
    Now comes my conclusion. I tend to think: Whenever you do something where you know that the craving is bigger than the reward  youre a slave of your mind.
    Whenever you do something because you know that the reward will outweigh your lacking motivation  youre the master of your mind.

    Thank you for your applause in advance :D
     
  8. Vortis

    Vortis Fapstronaut

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    Hey, I've been reading a book by Carl Jung on dreams (mostly commentaries on Freudian stuff). Accordingly, your conscious, waking mind can have moral disagreements with your unconscious mind. One of his patients was a married man who regularly sought extramerital affairs. In his waking life he gave absolutely no hint that this was morally bothersome to him, he seemed to have no problem with it. But in interpreting his dreams Jung pointed out that there was a big part of his unconscious that genuinely disagreed with the acts and found it morally reprehensible.

    I don't know if you know the comedian Louis CK, but he has some depressing and nasty stand-up bits about the joys of masturbation, they're painfully honest. In an interview with him he talks about how he cut out that material after years of using it because he realized it wasn't funny anymore and just became disgusting.

    I think the human unconscious actually knows what is moral and what isn't- this is where our morality comes from. Many people in the mainstream tout "sexual liberties" as a type of freedom when it is invariably a type of slavery as well.
     
  9. IamAddict

    IamAddict Fapstronaut

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    @Morrow Really a bit confusing at once so i read the whole post thrrice :), but it make sense.I agree with your conclusion.
    Keep sharing.

    Many Thanks
    IamAddict
     
  10. Morrow

    Morrow Fapstronaut

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    @kosh: Its interesting what you write there. I checked out that comedian you mentioned and can just agree with you. People tend to find disgusting things funny, but why is this? Maybe just because they dont expect someone to talk about this openly? Or are they just released because there is somebody who gives the impression that they are not the only ones having these problems?
    As you say, there just are some parts of our subconscious that we cant educate or rationalize away. Many people today think that the human brain is a blank sheet that can transform to anything through education. But I see on my example that this is not true. Many would call me a conservative because of the way I think about sexuality or other things. But I was never taught to think like this. It comes from my innate character. And I think its the same for many people, their education or their peer pressure may cover their innate way to think, but they wont erase it.

    @IamAddict: Im happy that my post was interesting enough for you to read it three times :D

    Another thing that comes to my mind has also to do with Evolution (i dont know wether everyone here accepts that theorie, but it very much affects the way I think). Evolution always tends to find the simplest way to make something function the way it should. Same goes for our drives. They are the simplest ways of nature to make us act how we should act. Nature could have given us the instruction: "make as many babies as possible and care for their survival". Well it didnt, it was complicated. It could also have said: "have sex with women and outpour your sperm in them" No, too complicated.
    What it actually says is: "stimulate your penis" and "boobs are great". What has this to do with reproduction? Well, in many cases this drives lead to reproduction, and so they fulfil their function. But thinking humans have found ways to misuse these tribes. And because of that they seem to be rather pointless. But the big reward, the orgasm, still has the position of the highest of our feelings. Because naturally it comes along with the highest principle of nature: reproduction.
    So, how on Earth would i deserve the highest of feelings by moving my forescin back and forth with my hand? How would I deserve a reward by staring at some boobs on a screen. These are absolutely senseless behaviors. And by performing them, we essentially mock our own innacurate nature and evolution. We say: "Hey, you didnt think about that, dummy, did you". And that is, in my opinion, a cruel thing to do. Because our human nature is wonderful, even though it may have some inaccuracies, it makes us to what we are. We really shouldnt make fun of it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2014
  11. ssa

    ssa Fapstronaut

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    Great topic, Morrow. I think we do need to approach this issue from all angles : philosophical and moral. While we are being bombarded in our times, with pornography which places sexual pleasure above all and any pleasure: intellectual, social, physical, moral etc. there seems to be an absolute silence on the rich history that we have of philosophical and moral positions which warn about sexual excess.

    The great Teachers, Socrates and Plato of the supposedly wanton ancient and Greek tradition warn us constantly about the need for sexual restrain for moral and philosophical exigencies.
    Most religious traditions including the Blessed Master talk about the dangers of Lust.

    Kosh, I like your point about the whole conscious and unconscious mind. in many of the 12 step addiction programms a perspective has been developed out of this observation, Inspite of ones best philosophical and moral convictions one could not stop unwanted sexual behaviours( Big Book, How it works, page 62)

    The way I approach is philosophical and moral convictions and comprehensive treatments are needed for those who have a philosophical and moral temperament.

    Glad you have started this dialogue,Morrow.
     
  12. arsebiscuits

    arsebiscuits New Fapstronaut

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    Don't try to shift the blame onto someone else. It is not their fault that you choose to be offended by their actions (actions which they keep private and which may not even be happening).

    More on topic: I definitely have no moral objections towards masturbation, although there are many practical reasons to avoid it. I did make efforts to find moral problems with porn (which I eventually did), but it did not help me. My addiction is stronger than my morals.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2014
  13. iwillovercome

    iwillovercome Fapstronaut

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    Love love love your comments morrow. I think you have great insight on the problem. For me, I think it is a lack of respect for ourselves. Disregarding God's existence for now, who I believe is real, I would say, we don't show we love ourselves when faced with an emotion we choose to hide in our bedroom under the covers and take care of the problem by pleasuring ourselves. What a lack of self-respect, self-love and self-appreciation for what we could be doing in that situation. For example, we are depressed because a girl doesn't like us and we feel rejected. Instead of hiding and mopping, if we truly loved ourselves, we would be proactive, think things like "I still like who I am, it was her choice." Then go to the gym, or go out with buddies, or laugh with someone about it, or create something, accomplish something small. Instead of hiding and having a self-pity pleasure party, we need to do something productive with our emotions.
     
  14. Morrow

    Morrow Fapstronaut

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    Thank you all very much for answering. It means a lot for me that my posts seem to make sense for some of you and are not just some crazy stuff I made up :D

    @arsebiscuits: I know that you cant just bar someone from doing PMO. Its forbidden in some countries but thats absurd. It really is a private thing and I dont want to condemn anybody. What I wanted to say is, that IF you are disgusted by that image (and I think many people are, we cant really choose wether we are or not), you are morally obliged to quit YOURSELF. You could say: Noone knows that I do PMO, or quit, so whats the point? But if you prove to yourself, that it is indeed possible for a humen being to quit, than you can think of other people quitting too. You will never know wether the persons you respect do PMO, but the more people quit, the weaker will be the suspicion in general. And suspicion is what really can destroy human relationships.
     
  15. SSEugene

    SSEugene Fapstronaut

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    Like the idea of using the approach that you can gauge if it is good for you by the way it affects the way you feel about yourself and the world. If it doesn't increase your wellbeing in a positive way it's not the moral thing to do.
     

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