Science in Adam and Eve?

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  1. Thanks, I'll give it a look but as I asked the other guy: how do you know which parts of the Bible to take literally or metaphorically?
     
  2. SolitaryScribe

    SolitaryScribe Fapstronaut

    lol well there's your answer. Catholics and Orthodox Christians don't have this issue. This idea if taking a literal meaning out of something you've read is only a recent methodology that began in north America around the 18th century during the scientific revolution age.

    Early Christians actually took the reading of scripture in the Hellenistic method, which is to derive a deep meaning or a philosophical meaning out of what they were reading. Here's an excerpt from one of the sayings by Origin: 'Concerning the Genesis account of creation, he wrote: "who is so silly as to believe that God ... planted a paradise eastward in Eden, and set in it a visible and palpable tree of life ... [and] anyone who tasted its fruit with his bodily teeth would gain life?"

    Now I'm not saying that nothing in the bible should be taken literally, there are definitely events that did happen literally. Such as Christ rising from the dead and his crucifixion, or the virgin birth, or the many miracles he performed. If you want to distinguish what should be taken literally and what should not, I would recommend to do some research on the early Christians and church fathers and see what they believed. The faith was handed to them directly from the apostles.
     
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  3. SolitaryScribe

    SolitaryScribe Fapstronaut

    This is actually quite simple. Deciphering whether to take a passage literally or metaphorically is only an issue in the old testament. the new testament or more specifically the gospels are eye witness accounts of events that actually happened regarding the person of Jesus of Nazareth.

    As for the old testament, there is a couple of key principles you need to maintain in order to prevent yourself from falling into the trap of literalism.

    1: Does the passage fit within the context or contradict other passages?
    -What I mean by this is if you find that one passage completely contradicts the second then that might mean that they were probably written by different authors and were written in a poetic style. For example is one of the psalms is says that the earth is flat or may refer top the "face of the earth" or "corners of the earth" and is surrounded by the firmament, while in another passage it says that the earth is a sphere. We know for a fact that the earth isn't flat, the earth doesn't have pillars or a face. Then you can make the logical conclusion that the author wrote it this way for poetic purposes. David wasn't a scientist, he was a romantic. It's the same as saying the sun sets at 6... well in actually we know the sun doesn't move at all, it's actually us that move around the sun.

    2:Is the passage logical in its literal sense or not?
    - When the bible speaks about the creation of everything within 7 days, however the sun wasn't created until the 4th day then how can we know what a day was? if a day is a human construct to track the passage of night and day how can we assume God is bound by this time limit? But also it contradicts another verse which states that for God, 1000 years is a day and a day is 1000 years. We can therefore make an assumption that God created things within era's. Some church fathers say that we are currently on the 8th day.

    3: What was the main purpose of this passage and who was the author?
    - Once again the bible was written by a whole bunch of different people in completely different centuries. Some had a purpose to record historical events that happened to the Jewish people, and others merely recorded their own interpretations of what was happening around them. Some we merely prophesizing and others were coming up with rules and regulation on how to formulate their society. For example if you were to take any chapter from Isaiah literally, your going to have a very bad day. Isaiah wasn't recording and historical events however his writings were influenced by the historical events at that time. In contrast to the book of Job, Which was essentially an eye witness account of what was happening with Job.

    4: The bible wasn't written by scientist's and was not written for the purpose of science.
    - Many people fall in this particular mistake where they mix science into religion and religion into science. This book is not a scientific book and was not written for that purpose. This book was written by men who didn't even know what gravity was, however they were influenced by the spirit of God to write about their journey with Him.

    4: Most importantly is how does this passage influence my own view on the events in the new testament.
    - Everything we read has to be done within the light of the new testament. and the persons of Jesus Christ. Does this particular passage or event make sense and contribute for the reasons of the incarnation of the Logos? Does viewing it in a literal or metaphorical sense hamper my belief that Jesus Christ who was incarnate for my own salvation? How does the theory of evolution effect my belief in Christ? and why should it? Why do I have to believe that the earth was created literally in 7 days for me to be able to call myself a Christian?
     
  4. Wow! Out of all things I've read about the Bible on this forum this has to the best. You should quit being a solitary scribe and become a theologian [or maybe it was being solitary scribe that made you became such a good theologian ;)]
     
  5. parkurman123

    parkurman123 Fapstronaut

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    theory of evolution becomes possible only when you include intelligent design. I had a case when people would
    send me articles on how RNA possibly became DNA, what they do not understand is that those studies are done very carefully with the specific temperature and correct order. Expect such a thing for nature to do it by accident is impossible. Tree in the story is a metaphor for a family tree, it says Eve is a mother of all living but
    does not say about Adam anything like that, you will notice that apple is not mentioned anywhere in a story. Usually, sacred stories do not talk about sex. In a story, Eve had twins (Superfecundation is the fertilization of two or more ova from the same cycle by sperm from separate acts of sexual intercourse, which can lead to twin babies from two separate biological fathers). My assumption is one is Adam son other Satans.


     
  6. parkurman123

    parkurman123 Fapstronaut

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    yes, you are right, the Bible has a lot of metaphors, which should not be taken literally and I agree with that statement, careful study is needed.
     
  7. parkurman123

    parkurman123 Fapstronaut

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    Yes, this is not important for personal faith and I do not think you will go to hell with Hitler because of your own interpretation hahhahah.
     
  8. SolitaryScribe

    SolitaryScribe Fapstronaut

    Thank you good sir! it's always nice to have a healthy catering to my ego this early in the morning :p
     
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  9. Hros

    Hros Fapstronaut

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    I was actually pleasantly surprised with much of what you wrote about the old testament because it's not too far off from how we hold it in Judaism. Just wondering:
    Then what exactly do you think Isaiah was writing about?
     
  10. SolitaryScribe

    SolitaryScribe Fapstronaut

    Well it seems the majority of what he was writing about was a prophecy of the coming messiah. As well as the relationship between the nation of Israel and God. 80% of what Isaiah wrote were prophecies, hence its not something to be taken literally.

    If you take any chapter from Isaiah, you'll notice that it doesn't follow a linear structure. One passage might be talking about something completely different then the passage after it, hence it is not a historical account like the book of Kings 1 & 2. If you tried to read it as a storyline it doesn't make much sense. It's even worse if you try to take what he's saying literally, for examply:

    Isaiah 51-5: "My righteousness draws near speedily, my salvation is on its way,
    and my arm will bring justice to the nations. The islands will look to me,
    and wait in hope for my arm".

    I didn't know that God has an arm, and what are these islands that are going to look to him? Last I checked islands didn't have eyes! Also where is this giant arm that Isaiah speaks of?

    Now we know in all common sense that Isaiah was using allegory, However what's more interesting is Isaiah wasn't talking in past tense, clearly these were not things that have happened yet during Isaiah's time. Now as to what these allegories mean is left for debate for the scholars.

    From my understanding is that the "arm" of God signifies the coming messiah. If you were to read the rest of that chapter is talks about how the "arm" of God will deliver salvation and justice to the nations.
     
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  11. parkurman123

    parkurman123 Fapstronaut

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    The chances that 2 people will have the same fingerprint is about 1 in 64 billion. that's why fingerprints are used in criminal cases because they are considered near certain proof. What woud qualify as proof of Jesus divine nature. Exhibit 1 the Messiah woud be a descendant of Abraham "deuteronom 1818 written in the 600 BC" based on world population estimates any random person has less than 1 in 350 chance of being the right race to fulfill this prophecy Exhibit 2 the Messiah would be from the tribe of Judah "thats genesis 49:10, written in the 900s B.C" and Messiah would be a descendant of Davd "that is secend Samuel 7:12 written in the 500s B.C" the odds that any given descendant of Abraham could fulfill this prophecy is about a 1 in 10 chance. Exhibit 3 the Messiah would arrive while the temple was still standing "that is in Malachi 3:1 written 400s B.C" and the Messiah would be reveled by 33 A.D. "That is in Daniel 9:24 written in the 500s B.C." any person who has lived since then, had a 1 in 16 chance of being born close enough to this date. Exhibit 4 Messiah would be born in Bethlehem " that is Micah 5:2 written in the 700s BC" there was 1 in 3968 chance of a Roman-era Jew being born in the right place to fulfill this prophecy. Exhibit 5 Messiah would be wounded and pierced before His death and would be assigned a grave with criminals " that is Isaiah 53:5 in 700s BC" that has a 1 in 360 chance of being randomly fulfilled.all credible religious agnostic or atheist experts of history agree that Jesus was born in Bethlehem a descendant of Abraham Judah and David, was alive during the second Temple period, was hailed as Messiah by the crowd in 33 A.D., was wounded and pierced before His death and was assigned a grave with criminals. Historians agree that the vereses that predict these things were written down 100 of years before Jesus. Calculated together the probabillity of all these predictions being randomly fulfilld in one person is about 1 in 68 billion chance
     
  12. Hros

    Hros Fapstronaut

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    What does that have to do with what you quoted? SolitaryScribe was talking about Isaiah, not Christianity.
     
  13. He's probably trying to prove that Jesus is the Messiah.
     
  14. Hros

    Hros Fapstronaut

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    Oh, I got that. It's just irrelevant to SolitaryScribe's post. It's also something he - parkurman123 - already posted on this thread.
     
  15. SolitaryScribe

    SolitaryScribe Fapstronaut

    That extremely interesting. Of all the religious figures that exist, Jesus is by far the most talked about, scrutinized and studied. very interesting
     
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  16. I'm sorry, I have to ask. Do you honestly believe this is "science"? It looks like a serious contender for the most nonsensical block of text ever written.
     
  17. Hros

    Hros Fapstronaut

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    So I was wondering if you actually read your sources beforehand. I know Hebrew so I went and opened up your sources to verify:
    That chapter in Deuteronomy isn't even talking about a messiah. It's talking about the continuation of prophetic leadership after the death of Moses.
    That verse in Genesis is part of the blessing Jacob gave to Judah, describing that Judah's tribe will be leaders, not necessarily a messiah.
    I read all three chapters of Malachi and couldn't find a direct reference to the messiah. The verse you're quoting clearly speaks of an angel of God clearing the path for God himself.
    A very debatable verse, the question being: when do the 490 years that count toward the formation of the root of the final redemption begin? Do they start at the moment Daniel got the vision or do they start a number of years later when the Jewish nation was exiled? In both cases, 490 years later are two different time periods, the latter coming out when the second temple was destroyed, quite a number of years after Jesus' death.
    Since you're proving Jesus from the Torah (old testament), for Jesus to have been an official descendant of Judah and David, it would have to be through his biological father. The mother only counts toward what nation you're part of - in this, case whether or not Jesus was even Jewish (he was, because of his Jewish mother). Last time I checked, Joseph, though he was possibly - maybe even probably - a descendant of David, he wasn't Jesus' father.
    Not "the crowd". A crowd. Specifically, his not-too-many followers.
     
  18. parkurman123

    parkurman123 Fapstronaut

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    Messiah’s identity found in Deuteronomy 18:15?

    https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Malachi+3:1&version=NIV
    Daniel's 490 year prophecy

    Virtually all credible religiou, agnostic and atheist experts of history agree that Jesus was a descendant of Abraham, Judah and David
     
  19. parkurman123

    parkurman123 Fapstronaut

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    If you read carefully you will see that these prophecies were written hundreds of years before Jesus. It is difficult to estimate the chances of fulfilling these prophecies by the random person but it is a very small chance.
     
  20. parkurman123

    parkurman123 Fapstronaut

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    I'm just talking about Messiah, am not sure if I already posted on this thread, maybe on different one
     

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