Which fantasies are considered “porn-like”?

I had some of the same questions once I'd read it, so I did some digging. There are a few more books that expanded on it a little bit but the gist of it was that Fantasy was anything that related to material within the Porn you watched that you are recalling for arousal. If you're activating those same neural pathways that are activated during P-use, then that's where the damage is coming from; your brain can't differentiate whether something is real or not in your imagination. So if you're imagining it, it thinks it's happening. I am paraphrasing heavily here.

But you're right - you're going to have thoughts pop in like that. Saying "I won't think about this!" over and over.. well that makes you think about it. Don't think about a fire hydrant. Thought about one, didn't you? So it's good that you're just letting them pass. They lose their power overtime that way.

Referencing the book and some of YBOP's articles, it could be argued that physical intimacy will help you rewire fully, but it might be counterproductive early into your reboot process. There's a lot of conversation on this particular point. That's also a conversation to have with your girlfriend, if you decide that you may need to take a break from the constant stimulation. Just according to some of the books, since I'm not expert: you may want to give it a month or two of full hard mode. That's entirely depending on your goals, however. If you're just in this for quitting self-stimulation and porn, then I don't see the problem with physical intimacy. Far be it from me to tell you what's best for your love life. But if there's any underlying issues that you're trying to address with stopping PMO, then you may want to consider a short break. I know Terry Crews and his wife did a 90-day stint focusing on more emotional intimacy rather than the physical; you might try that. Regardless, that's a conversation for you and her.

There's also the risk that too much sexual stimulation could lead you to craving it more, and thus resisting p-urges will be more difficult. The chaser effect is real, and it can be a real pain. Since you're reading up on it, The Brain that Changes Itself is recommended in YBOP iirc, and it's a great secondary book to it. It'll help frame things a bit more and answer some of the questions from the YBOP book nicely.

 

WTF is "free use"?

 

I didn’t know what free use was, so thanks for the explanation. After thinking about it a bit, I think it’s probably frequently used as porn-like. Any kind of S or S adjacent activity that emphasizes recreational play, physiological “release,” and/or transactional exchange over emotional bonding is a misuse of S, and is “porn-like.” It’s not that S is always srs biznis and you can’t have fun, but when pleasure is given primacy over bonding, it becomes suspect.

The collar bit is really just a signal that says, “at minimum I’m okay with S, but you have to initiate.” That’s communication, that’s okay, but it sounds like it’s often used as a passive-aggressive way to ask for S.

Sounds like you are relatively new to quitting P. It’s great that you’re committed enough to spend time reading and genuinely engaging with the ideas. It’s even better that you’re in a relationship, and trying to cut out a major roadblock to authentic, satisfying intimacy. I agree, trying to navigate the libido imbalance is tough, for all couples, but especially when you suspect your own has been mutated and juiced up by P. The question is, what do you think S is for?

 

As far as I am aware, there's really no elimination to the chaser effect except for not inciting it in the first place. It's a natural evolutionary response. As for meditation, there's a lot of good studies from 12-steps groups that reference it as being highly effective. You just need to find out how to make it work best for you; there's no single way to do it.

Pertaining to PMO - I'm not sure if it's specifically your libido, but cravings and urges will decrease as you cut out PMO, yes. This'll happen overtime. How much of a degree you experience this, however, depends on how much you're 'satisfying' those urges. There's no concrete way to do this, per-say. But if you're constantly O'ing, then this will diminish the process to a degree that matches the frequency to which you are performing the act. Our brain is finicky, and it doesn't exactly work with these things in specific categories. It's a lot to explain, but that's essentially the bare bones of it. The really, really bare bones. Meshuga had some really good points on it above.

It really falls down to what you're doing. The community at large has a lot of different views, some more...ehh...extreme than the others, for lack of a better term. It's important to keep in mind what your own goals are, but to be honest with yourself. For starters, you're not really avoiding PMO, you're just avoiding PM. There's a bit of a difference. PMO abstinence includes no O from any source for the duration of time you choose to abstain. It's a good choice if you're single, but it's not the only way to do it. There is a subforum on NoFap for people with partners specifically, and you might find some more experience from that regard that better fits your situation there. Just to get this out there, with what you've stated to be your goals so far - a break from O for a little bit might be in order. That's just in my opinion given what information I've read and my own experiences; take it for what you will. That will, however, give you some more time to reboot and recover. But, there may be people who do this with a partner who recommend simply cutting down on the frequency of S.

That'd be a good avenue to prioritize. It's easy for someone to say 'Yeah just stop doing the S' without taking into account that you are in a relationship and you're dealing with another person's feelings. Definitely have a candid discussion with your partner about this. Express your goals, how you think you can work with her and some things you can do to help you work through this together. YBOP's website even has non-O related ways to 'perform,' if this is an absolute non-negotiable. I'd recommend checking that out too. You can also find other ways to release, like exercise or hobbies. Helps to not create such a big dopamine vacuum. (Note on the Free Use thing: It really depends on how much you're doing it. If a good percentage of your day is spent thinking about S and O, it's going to slow the rewiring of those pathways that are accustomed to it. If your goal is to rewire those, consider the break. IF not, and you're focused on mainly cutting P / M, you may still have some difficulty but overall you might find your current trajectory unaltered as much.)

Quick addition: Yeah you're experiencing symptoms of a flatline with the hormone thing. Don't do anything to Captain Winky. P is a hyperstimuli, the effects on our primitive reward system are massive - give it some time to recover. Flatlines come in all shapes and sizes, they can be minor and they can be major. Other healthy changes in your life help to mitigate some of these issues as I've found personally; I went on Keto (it works for me, I'm not saying you should do it too), stopped eating sugar, etc. Felt a lot better.

 

So, it's just my opinion, biased but informed, but I think recreation and release are natural side consequences you get in the course of bonding. You don't have to aim for those. You don't have to emphasize those at all. I mean, being playful is bonding. Just make sure your play never gets in the way of bonding, and P, the kinds of S celebrated in P, has a way of doing that.

Again, my biased but informed opinion... placing any emphasis whatsoever on "appreciating" real girls in the wild gets interpreted as "creepy." For virtually all self identified porn addicts, we soon find "appreciating" real girls gets detrimental to the process. If you abstain, not even recover, just abstain, that is definitely going to happen. Maybe too much. You may find your experience with P has made it so seeing attractive girls at all poses a serious problem to your second stated goal.

I know you're new here, but I don't know that you can. I don't know you, I don't know your situation, but most people who have a severe enough problem that they identify porn as the source, find porn is WAY more of a problem than they thought. You're on your own path, I'll let you get to it, but I found for me, exploring fantasies is something I don't even need to keep on the table. I have way bigger problems. Hopefully that doesn't apply to you.

It's just, it sounds like you're approaching NoFap as slightly improving your life, where I think quitting porn is about improving yours and everyone's lives around you. It's a moral obligation.

 

That’s chaser. While abstinent, it’s common to experience this heightened state of agitation and desire after increasingly light “triggers,” up to merely seeing and appreciating an attractively dressed woman. I don’t want to put a values statement on it, that’s just what happens. My brain is accustomed to getting satisfaction. It expects O. When it doesn’t get the O, it reminds me that I know exactly what to do to get the O.

There is no libido compatible with one acclimated to P. Dealing with the urge by having S is making release priority over bonding. It turns S into something your gf has to do for you to keep you under control, not something you do together to enjoy each other’s company.

 

Wait, so you want to continue to PMO for the next five weeks? That may just make things worse, especially if your brain becomes more reliant on the material for its hit. Don't do that, save yourself from another five weeks of having to reboot. By that time you could be well past most of the withdrawals and enjoying the benefits.

 

I figured, just was thrown off a bit. The flatline tends to improve over time, and you have wiring for a physical relationship in your head so you're not as far gone as someone who's spent twenty years PMO'ing and has no wires related to physical intimacy.

You'll notice changes like this as your brain rewires. I know libido seems high at the moment, but keep in mind what is fueling it; near daily doses of extremely potent digital hyperstimuli. This is the science on it. So like stated above by others, you'll have a better idea of what your libido looks like as you slowly reset your brain to a normal state. P skyrockets it to purely unfeasible proportions over time, hence why you'll find that there are hundreds (if not thousands, or more) of reasons that couple counseling occurs with 'P use' being one of the main difficulties in the relationship. To put it in a nutshell, and I can provide sources if necessary, your brain simply does not know that P is not real. As far as it is concerned, there is no difference between a session of P and your girlfriend - except that the P is often novel and hits the reward system much, much more. So take that and extend that over the period of time in which you started watching and when you quit - that's the amount of time your brain has been pumped up by a drug-like stimuli and wired to believe this is the norm.

So, flatline does suck, but it's a sign you are actually recovering. Use it to your advantage. The worst thing you could do is go back to PMO to 'relieve' it, and according to anecdotal data and the actual evidence YBOP posts (From the NIH), it won't and it'll cause a spiral 70-80% of the time. You want to stop that stuff before it even takes hold. You start getting thoughts? Change the channel as fast as possible. Once it gets a foothold, your logical brain will be overridden slowly. I know you're new so I'll let you in on a golden piece of advice I wish I'd had more of when I started: Don't edge. It'll be tempting - but absolutely do not edge in the initial weeks. Even if it's just a fantasy of your girl, if you do it this early into recovery it will re-activate those pathways and you'll either be in for a very, very rough day or worse and more statistically likely: A full on relapse that could even grow into a binge relapse. Talk about losing a lot of progress. The kicker is that you don't feel better after - you'll feel much worse in the following hours and days. I cannot stress that enough.

One of the best ways to beat the urges as I've found out according to one of the NIH articles I just read; when they're strong, research. I had some of the strongest urges I've ever had this past weekend; so I watched a documentary on the hazardous effects of P-use. Be careful with these, some are straight up soft-core. I was lucky to find one that was actually tailored to people trying to quit, and it was purely informative. But it killed the urge and craving. Highly, highly recommend this strategy.