Quinn's marriage journal

Acts of service is her love language. I've been busting my butt for 5 years speaking hers and I"m asking her to start speaking mine. And enjoy it.

 

Last night my wife gave me two attraction signals. She gave me a look when she complimented my cooking, a long look of attraction. Then, before she went to bed (she was up at 3AM the previous night and I had to work late last night). She came up to me to give me a kiss and she put her arm around my neck. It was a real kiss of attraction, not just a good night peck. When we were first dating, she used to kiss me with her arms around my neck. I miss that so much.

Those signals are real. But why do I keep getting stuck with all the bad feelings of feeling undesired. For 5 years she denied me intercourse except on occasion. She never took ownership of working through her pain. She just took it off the table. And I know she found it a pleasing and delightful experience with her ex. Why didn't she desire me enough to have that same feeling with me?

Why did I let myself accept charity sex for years. The "I'm not in the mood but I'll give you a handjob" sex. She would just bow out and choose not to participate from the start. Give me a job, and after orgasm, I felt pretty much the same as when I used porn. All empty and lonely inside.

I have my first appointment with the marriage coach today. About an hour after I have therapy. I've been up since 3:15 when my daughter woke me up. I got about 4 hours of sleep last night. That has been most nights for the past 3 weeks. I'm glad I don't have to work today. I'm so exhausted.

Quinn

 

I made it easy for her. I gave her everything she needed to be happy and she never felt like she had to work for anything. I never gave her anything about me to pursue. Now that I have by saying the marriage is in crisis, I can't tell what's real and what's coerced. I'm so confused. Why did it take fear and consequence to motivate her? Why did I have to do that? I'm feeling like an SO who has to force the issue with their PA, and then wondering why they had to do that, why weren't they just enough as who they were, and now that they have forced the issue, how do they know anything is real and genuine?

 

Today I had therapy and marriage coaching. Both were productive. There was a lot that happened by the most important take-away from the marriage coach is to give Quinny space and time, meaning don't bring up sex or any issue surrounding it at all. Let her work it out for a while.

My therapist said the same thing but he said it better. He said:

"What it sounds like you want from your wife is for her to cultivate and express her desire for you sexually as well as her desire to be pleased by you sexually and you want her to do this of her own free will. Since you have already witnessed great change and a willingness on her part, it behooves you to have patience and permit the process to unfold. Then, over time, the problems you feel are in the present will gradually become the problems of the past and the amends you feel she needs to make to you to restore trust will gradually occur. As a result, you may find forgiveness possible."

Quinn

 

Yes. I would agree with that. I have thought about that since the very beginning of our relationship. She always avoided relationships even though she wanted a family. She did not have a serious relationship that involved sex until she was 32 and even then she was chasing an unavailable guy. She expressed a lot of anxiety in the beginning of the relationship that I would find her sexually inadequate and leave her and sought a lot of reassurance from me.

She feels like with me that she got it right, that she learned from her previous relationship how to avoid unavailable guys and fall in love with an available one. So from her perspective "I got it right, I married an available guy". But from my perspective she only got it partially right because she didn't learn how to have intimacy with said available guy, me.

Thank you.
Quinn

 

We talked some last night over home-made popsicles. The conversation was good but most of it was happening while kiddo was calling out from the crib trying to avoid going to bed. Kiddo had also thrown-up a little and we smelled like vomit on our clothes. Kiddo tends to get worked up when she doesn't want to go to bed. We are working on sleep training.

We only talked because she asked me questions. Both the therapist and the counselor told me to completely drop the issue of sex for a while. But when she asks questions I will answer them. I reminded her that I'm only talking about it because she is asking. First she wanted to know what my therapist and the counselor said. I think she is nervous that all of the attention is on her and has this idea that everyone is taking the perspective that she is the broken one that is going to get worked on in this process which is not true.

I told her what my therapist said in summary which is: "What it sounds like you want from your wife is for her to cultivate and express her desire for you sexually as well as her desire to be pleased by you sexually and you want her to do this of her own free will. Since you have already witnessed great change and a willingness on her part, it behooves you to have patience and permit the process to unfold. Then, over time, the problems you feel are in the present will gradually become the problems of the past and the amends you feel she needs to make to you to restore trust will gradually occur. As a result, you may find forgiveness possible."

I told her the counselor said basically the same thing but stressed emphasis on what I was doing wrong and how to correct that which is that all my weeping and controlling and jealousy were unattractive and unhelpful to the situation so I should just stop (those feelings have lessened greatly, still there somewhat, but I'm not putting them on her to fix). Quinny agreed that yes they were unattractive and unhelpful and was grateful for my stopping. I also apologized to her for my behavior the past 2 weeks. I told her I felt really bad about it and it was inappropriate. Quinny said to me that my feelings are just my feelings and that's ok but that some of the things I said to her were deeply controlling and disturbing to her and made her feel like I was punishing her for having a life before she met me. She wanted to know what I thought she should do if I ever have a melt down again and I said just tell me that you've laid down this boundary and that you're leaving the room.

Then she asked me this question: "What are things that I can do to show you that I desire you?"

I said the most important thing is to have and show enthusiasm.

She said, "what's enthusiasm to you? Can you be specific?"

I thought about it and said "What was so great for me last week when we had passionate sex and I said I felt desired was the enthusiasm. You were really into it. You really wanted it for yourself. When our kid interrupted us 20 minutes in and you had to go in there, I could hear you trying to put her back to sleep with an urgency "Honey, please go back to sleep. Baby, it's time to sleep now". And I could just feel how turned on you were and I felt like you wanted me to give you pleasure."

She said "Can you give me a few examples of what I can do to express enthusiasm to you?"

I said "When you used to kiss me with your arms around my neck, I felt like you were really into me, I miss that." I said, "when you initiate with me, look into my eyes to convey that you want me and make physical moves on me instead of saying "I think I can try tonight if you're up for it. Also, when you decline my advances, do so skillfully, don’t respond coldly or recoil from my touch like you’re grossed out. Give me a raincheck. Do it with love.”

Then I said, at least for right now, the most important thing I would like to see from you to show me that you desire a sexual relationship with me is for you to take initiative and try to figure some things out for yourself. I said the problem with me just giving you the list of things is that:

1. I don’t necessarily just know everything that turns me on
2. there is no spontaneity in that. Think back to when we were dating, we didn’t just tell each other “this is what works”, we had to figure it out and then post-communicate.
3. When I tell you “do this”, it instantly creates a little doubt when you actually do that, that I have somehow coerced it from you and thus it feels less natural.
4. As a man, and especially in this relationship, having always to be the one to initiate, I took all of the risks. I want to see you take some risks. Google “ways to turn on your man” or “ways to show your man you desire him” and try it out. Be willing to take some risks.

She agreed and said she wasn’t looking for a laundry list per se but wanted to know the scope of my needs, as in “do you want me to show up at your office and lock the door? Do you want to have sex in an airplane bathroom?” etc etc. I said I understood where she was coming from and that no, I’m very vanilla. My idea of a wild time is sex in other rooms of the house (which btw, we’ve never done).

Then I said, it occurs to me that maybe you have been expressing your desire for me in ways that I’m just completely missing. I don’t know how you do that. Can you tell me what you have been doing to express your desire or how you like to express desire for your lover?” She said yes that occurred to her as well and she will think about it.

She also admitted to and took ownership of willfully checking out of the sexual relationship in our marriage. She said she is trying to correct that and admitted that was wrong and completely understands why I felt undesired.

I said thank you for admitting that. I said that it is important to me that you want this for yourself as well. That may not happen at first but ultimately I will need that. If we have a relationship that is fully based on “charity sex” that won’t work for me.

Then we pivoted to “the gift” which is talked about in the book “The Sex-Starved Marriage”. That is where one partner gives a sexual gift to another out of love when that partner just knows it’s not going to work for them at that moment. I said the problem I _had_ with that is that I felt you weren’t really giving me a gift, I felt like you were just trying to get me off your back so you would give me a half-hearted hand job and I left those experiences feeling deeply lonely. When you give a gift, like it says so in the book, you have to really mean it as a gift and be enthusiastic about it. You have to enjoy the gift giving aspect of it. The book says that I should be willing to receive the gift graciously and I will work on that. That will be fine but the past felt more like you were just bowing out of the sexual experience. But yes, I am open to the gift.


Questions for her when she brings up the next opportunity to talk:

1. When you get really sick, and not just a week or two flare up, but if you have another situation where you're really sick for 6 months, what do you see our sex life looking like in that situation?

2. Last week when we had very passionate sex, you said to me that you felt sexy. What specifically made you feel sexy?

3. What are the ways that you feel you have been expressing your desire for me that perhaps I am missing?

4. Why did you choose to check out of the sexual relationship in our marriage? What were your reasons?

Peace,
-Quinn

 

I'm going to write an empathy for my wife thread next. But right now I am really angry. I thanked her for admitting fault for checking out sexually from the marriage. I'm glad she was honest with me.

But it makes me so angry. At the same time I was checking in for more and more responsibility for the home. I do the dishes. I do the cooking. I do the wash. I take care of the bills. I manage all the repairs. I take care of the kiddo's doctor appointments. I think about doing things for her and our family every day almost all of the time. I take an hour break to go to the gym.

I wrote her the deepest love letter I have ever written. She's never written me one. I gave her the best first mother's day I could think of. I decorated the baby room with signs and flowers and wrote her a card and took care of everything that day. She got me a shirt and a book for father's day.

I'm just so pissed right now. Gotta get this out.

Quinn

 

Empathy for my wife, in her voice:

I feel so overwhelmed right now. My husband recently told my that he's unhappy, no he said "miserable", in the marriage. He said he couldn't go on like this and if things didn't change between us, he would leave. I love my marriage and I am happy. I am scared to lose it. I'm terrified about what would happen to our daughter. He's the person I want to be with but I make him miserable!!! He wants more sex, he wants more desire from me. I don't know how to do this. I don't know if I _can_ do this. What if I can't??? Will he divorce me? I've never felt confident about sex and he's accusing me of being some sexpert in my last relationship. I keep telling him it was a bad relationship but he thinks I just had great sex and somehow don't want it with him. I've been showing him my desire I thought. i don't even know what that means. I don't know what to do. I feel like I'm being told I'm the defective one. Why doesn't he just accept me as I am? I feel like everyone is looking at me telling me I have to change. I don't know how to change. What if I try this and it doesn't work? What if I don't like it? What if it makes me feel bad about myself, it already does really.

My husband seems obsessed about this. He's not been enjoying things or our daughter like he used to. He's been withdrawn, angry, mopey, controlling, and unattractive. It doesn't make we want to do anything for him. I know I screwed up, I admitted that to him. But what he wants, I don't know if I can do it. I don't know if I'll ever be good enough for him. He keeps pushing it, keeps asking for more. I'm glad the therapists told him to back off. I don't think he can do it but at least he knows he's supposed to do it. I need space to breathe. I can't just hop in the sack and show lustful desire for him. It's just not who I am. I feel like my husband doesn't love me like I am. I'm not the person he wanted after all.

He keeps talking to his friend about this, his female friend. I'm jealous that she gets to know more of what he's thinking and feeling than I do. It's always been that way. I always felt like his friends knew him better than I did. He always seemed reserved with me but so open to them. I don't have friends I can talk to about this. I don't feel close enough to anyone else to talk about how I feel. I feel alone, lost in a maze, a puzzle. I'm being tested and if I don't pass the test I lose my marriage and my happy home. And the person testing me is supposed to be the person I trust and feel safe with. I used to feel safe with him but I don't anymore or at least right now!

Help!!

 

Really glad I got my anger out on paper instead of at home.

Quinny and I had a nice evening together. Looks like kiddo has a stomach bug, she tossed her cookies again big time. Poor kiddo, she was feeling so sick. This time she was able to communicate it by rubbing her tummy. That's the first time that's she's actually been able to communicate that.

Quinny and I are happy because a couple we became friends with during the adoption process just adopted a baby boy a few days ago. They waited two years longer than we had to and I know it was hard for them. We are so happy for them.

Quinny was coming down with a cold and was feeling like crap tonight. She apologized to me for this week not being able to show up for sexual intimacy. She said she felt bad because she has been trying to make extra effort because she knows she wasn't in the past and wants me to be happy. I told her thank you but let's just take the pressure off. She said she was putting it on herself and I said let's just be gentle to each other and ourselves. I also told her that what I said last night about her taking initiative to take some risks, while that was important, I really thought about it and really probably the most important thing that would help us both is for her to take initiative at figuring out how to focus on her own pleasure. That's what will ultimately bring us together in the way we were meant to be. When we both take responsibility for our own experience. I don't want this to turn in to some sort of "omg I have to figure out how to make my husband feel desirable" situation where she forgoes her own needs.

She gave me a few warm kisses and a warm smile. She told me one of the things that turns her on about me is watching me be such a great dad to our daughter.

Peace,
-Quinn

 

Thanks @Faceplanter and @need4realchg for your comments.

I don't think I could quantify the trust issues. I don't think either of us are in complete distrust of each other. I think we just have trust issues around increased vulnerability and intimacy (her need to feel safe and secure, my need to feel desired and pursued). We have each violated each other's trust in the past in some ways around these topics. Not huge and insurmountable but it has happened. I actually don't think it's possible to be in a long-term life-long commitment and not screw this up at some point or another. We are all imperfect and as we say "we only hurt the ones we love" because, no one else would really care, right?

But, as I have said before, it's not the breach, it's how we mend it. And I am very grateful for the partner I have in this regard.

I think my expectations got way out of whack when my codependent self just needed her to think of me as a 10 and I got comparative with her ex whom I think of this way. He probably was to her at some point in the beginning. But that is the past and that relationship ended, and she ended it because it was hurting her.

What is more important is that we grow desire and attraction based on the positive qualities we love in each other. And if I were to be comparative again, that's where I kick his ass. Attraction to me has grown from her even though it has not manifested itself sexually in the way that I had hoped it would naturally. Attraction to him may have started out super high, but it all went downhill from there.

And I would say the same for her, actually. When I met my wife, I didn't have instant thoughts of "omg I find myself just drawn to her and wanting her". I thought, wow, she is smart and classy, physically she looks nice but that's not what drew me in. We just had a really great time on our first date. And we both said so. That honesty and vulnerability right from the start is what did it for me. And my attraction to her has grown and grown.

As an addict, even though I curbed behaviors, I still had fantasy in my head. I still found myself spinning up sexual thoughts around an ex who was good in bed. And those thoughts brought me some sort of false comfort, an escape from what was lacking in my marriage. The exes I dated before I met my wife were really into me. Most of them thought of me as a 10. I did most of the breaking up when I was dating because, even though it was fun to be thought of as a 10, it wore off quickly (think 2-3 months) and then I was left with, but I don't really like this person, I'm not really into them despite the sex and the attraction and desire they have for me.

Now, I can't do that. I don't mean I won't do that and there is some sort of boundary. I mean I _can't_ do that. It's simply impossible for me to fantasize about someone else. My wife doesn't care if I masturbate and even would hope I do that to take the edge off if she's just not available. I've tried it some and it is just impossible for me to fantasize about anyone else but her. My fantasies are about desire for sexual connection with her, not release or conquest, or ego boosting macho crap. I just want her.

It's so foreign to me, I've had addict brain most of my life. I think, is this what it is like for "normal" people? Wow, I have been missing out.

Peace,
-Quinn

 

I want to cry but the tears won't come. I wish they would so I could just get it out.

I screwed up last night. No, I guess we both did but I feel like mostly I did.

Quinny finally got two night's of good sleep and was feeling better. But her period was starting yesterday. She's never let me touch her when that's happening. She was kinda like "normally I would but because of this I can't..."

I said "It doesn't bother me one bit so I'm still game." and she said ok to that and I said "It's my understanding that sometimes O's can help with the cramps" and she kinda sideways nodded her head and gave me a "yeah sorta" kinda look. Then, boom, the jealousy. She knew this but never let ME touch her. I tried to get out of it but I was already hurt by something earlier in the day (more on that later).

We ate popsicles on the porch and watch the storm roll in. We went inside to go upstairs, she wanted to wait worrying about waking our daughter. I had put her to bed so I thought it would be fine. But sure enough, we woke her up. I had to spend 30 minutes putting her back down and then got a big "I told you so". I was frustrated. She was mad at me for being frustrated saying I was blaming our daughter. I said, I wasn't blaming her but I was allowed to be frustrated by it.

Then, we tried, but it was feeling so artificial. It's like, we started passionately kissing sans passion. But she had a sore neck, and she had a bruised knee. And those things were bothering her, so it didn't work out within 5 minutes.

I got upset and sad. I felt like a failure. I felt like I needed it to work and it didn't. She got upset because what she needs from me is complete acceptance of her trying and that being enough for now. I told her I'm trying for that but I'm so intimacy starved that it's hard. Then I let out a little jealousy, not as bad as before but some came out. We got past that. And she said "you still have this idea that I was somehow a different person before you and that's just not true. I was younger and healthier and had more energy but that's it. I've always been the way I am. I chased after guys because I absolutely knew that they wouldn't be interested in me. I was afraid of intimacy."

And I said "one of the ways I've been working through this is to look back on our first year together. You had so much anxiety then, you were so afraid that I would reject you as a bad lover and you sought so much reassurance from me. That's not a person who is confident sexually. That's not a person who takes risks and explores. I recognize quite clearly that those two views of you, one as a person who used to be interested in being sexual, and one who was always terrified of it, are incompatible. You can't be both. You are the latter. And from my view, even though you saw me as safe, warm, and kind, that hasn't brought you out of your anxiety yet. I am seeing how this is more and more about your anxiety and avoidance than about your desire."

Then we talked about connection. She said "you have been setting high standards for me, you are disappointed when I don't have an orgasm. You seem to need that for some reason and you're not letting me have my own sexual experience. I know you can give me orgasms. Sometimes I just like the relaxing feeling and that's all I need. I just want connection and closeness from you." I said that I wanted the same things and feel a deep hole in that. It felt like for years that you did not want that. I said that "connection" works differently for me though. It doesn't come from just cuddling or just talking, it comes from the sexual experience. I said "one of the ways I feel most connected to you is when I'm giving you oral sex and here's why. When I am giving you pleasure, you are enjoying it and relaxing and many times climaxing. It makes me feel good to know I can do this for you. Even though I am not climaxing myself, I get turned on because I am deeply emotionally connected to you. When I touch you with my lips and my tongue, I feel that strong desire and love for you. I get just as much at least emotionally out of it as you do. However, when you are giving me pleasure, I feel some connection because I feel how wonderful it is to be pleased by you but there is something missing. I don't feel from you the same feelings I have when reversed. I don't feel from you that you are connecting with me on a deep emotional level. Maybe you are but I'm not getting the connection. I'm often left feeling like you are providing me a physical service. When you touch me, I need to feel that two way connection. Also, I don't feel that connection when we are experiencing mutual sexual pleasure (intercourse). I'm not trying to push intercourse because I just want it physically. I'm pushing it because I feel so deprived of the connection of mutual pleasure with you."

She wants me to understand how hard this is for her and how much of a huge effort she is making. I do. I told her, I know I need to get rid of the bad feelings and they are just getting in the way but I would like your understanding that I am working just as hard on that and that resolving that from my side is probably just as difficult as resolving the things for you so please have at least empathy for that. I said perhaps if they come up, I can ask you for some time to myself so I don't spill it all over you. She said that would be ok as long as I dealt with it and returned and gave her affection (ie not run away from intimacy just because I can't handle it).

By now we had talked away the night. She was ready to give me "the gift" before but I blew it. I was upset with myself. She asked me not to be and said that was just more expectations.

As we were going to sleep, I figured out what had been bothering me and triggered me earlier.

I have so much anxiety about sex with her. I spend my whole day trying to make sure everything is right to set the stage because I know it has to be just so perfect for her and anything rocking the boat gets in the way. She's even referred to herself as a panda before. I'm making myself crazy with anticipation and that's why I react badly when hopes and expectations don't come to fruition.

But specially yesterday:

I worked all day and had a hard day at work. After work before she got home, I saw our new bathroom light fixture had arrived. I installed it, took about 1.5 hours. I wanted to surprise her but she kept not noticing. I cooked dinner and got everything ready. Two nights ago, I sliced the meat too thick and she pointed that out. Last night I sliced it oh so thin and prepared everything almost perfectly. Except I made one mistake, I didn't cook my daughter's zucchini right. Of course, the only thing we talked about was that I did not do this right. I felt so deflated. She is always pointing out my mistakes. I work so hard and make one mistake and all I hear is the mistake. (this is the way her father parented her). Before we went upstairs I said to her "Are you blind?" and she said "what?". I said "go in the bathroom, close the door and turn on the light". And then she finally noticed.

As we were going to sleep last night I told her "the marriage coach told me that there should be a 5 to 1 ratio of compliments to criticisms or your relationship is intimacy starved. I worked so hard yesterday, sliced the meat right and everything, and the only thing you told me was what I did wrong. This has been a problem for a long time. I need you to be more gentle with my mistakes." She said, "I did notice you sliced the meat thinly". I said "but you didn't say anything about that, you only said what I did wrong. This is probably what put me in a bad emotional place to begin with". She said she will do better.

I have an appointment with my physical trainer. Will write more when I get back. More to talk about from this morning.

Peace,
-Quinn

 

Wow. What a workout. My arms are shaking and I can barely type.

This morning I told her about the anticipation I feel and how I feel compelled to make sure everything is out of the way for her so that she can be sexual. She immediately told me that was controlling behavior. I got upset at that. She is the one who told me this. She is the one who showed me this. I am having an anxiety response and she's telling me it's controlling. I told her not to think of it as something I'm trying to get her to do but something I'm trying to do to make the situation more available and asked that she have more empathy for my feelings and take the perspective that that's maybe how a person who is physically deprived might react.

Then I asked her in advance if she would consider "the gift" tonight. I told her I'm just in a place where I desperately need to feel that connection. She said she would consider it but wanted assurances from me that I would accept what she has to offer at whatever level she has to offer it and not judge the situation as not good enough and sulk. I said I would endeavor to do that but I might make suggestions during the process to help increase the connection.

I was feeling overwhelmed and have a lot to do today. Quinny used to do the meal planning and I took it over recently. She text me this morning from work and said if it would help she could take that back on. I responded that I'm only feeling emotionally overwhelmed right now and can take care of the meal prep. I would like her to just focus on helping me where I asked which is more physical intimacy and less criticism/more compliments. She texted back "Ok!".

Peace,
-Quinn