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A group for members of all religions, or no religion at all, to talk about religion
Lol funny, I see what you did there but the fact that the Christian movement survived against all odds with so many competing religions... it was unlikely that it would have survived yet it did and that made it seem true to me.
Another reason why the gospels seem true is because of the fact that the men died, were beaten, went to prison etc for their beliefs... why would you die for something you know to be a lie?
I think we should say all religions are true and all religions aren't true. You can know God without believing in God.
Thousands have chosen death over giving up on their beliefs whether those beliefs were religious, political or economic doctrines. Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, Hindus, Ba'athis, communists, anti-communists, Nazis, anti-fascists, Jacobins, separatists... Clearly, not all of those people could have been right.
That's an inclusivistic view isn't it? I thought Christianity was exclusive in its truth claims...
Yeah but people normally accuse the disciples of creating Christianity and inventing the resurrection and stuff in order to gain money, power etc but if you look at it the disciples had everything to lose from what they were claiming, they were beaten, imprisoned, tortured, mocked etc. Why would a person put themselves through all of that for something they knew was a lie?
for me, religion and ''god'' is something I struggle with, I was raised Roman catholic but it was forced on me so I learned to despise religion, because a)it was forced and b) how could so much trauma be placed on me as a child if he were true.? I have brought up my concerns with my sa sponsor because so much of the program revolves around ''god''. he told me not to worry about it right now. I tried to tell him that I plainly do not believe anyone has any role in my life and that I believe that ''god'' and religion is nothing but a scape goat to eliminate the fact of taking absolute full accountability but it's ok to do so because it's religion. but that's just me, I do believe that it can definitely help people but for me it just seems like nonsense, bible was written by man and also religion,
just my opinion
Again, I'm not disputing the fact that some religious people's faith is honest. What I'm saying is that they could be wrong (and given their reasoning they almost certainly are). There are thousands of people today who insist that the Earth is flat or that Elvis Presley is still alive - some even on this fucking forum! What do they have to gain? Nothing, they're just stupid.
When it comes to the 12 Apostles specifically, the only evidence of their existence is the Bible which is not the most trustworthy source. But let's say those people existed and were deeply convinced of Jesus' magic. Is that enough for you to make such a giant leap of faith? Some of the companions of Muhammad (who unlike the twelve apostles are confirmed historical figures) faced the same oppression yet they would tell you they saw Muhammad split the Moon in two parts. Well, I'm not buying it, sorry.
Why do you say they're almost certainly wrong?
Sure they don't have anything to gain but they can be safe in making their claims since they don't have to worry about being beaten, tortured, imprisoned etc
I think there is extrabiblical evidence eg. there's evidence that Thomas went to India, James took over the church from Jesus, the apostle Paul etc
Well the Bible does say that those who believe without seeing are blessed, it's the essence of faith
Because the evidence is
Muh holy book says so.
Wouldn't it be nice if it were true?
I think it's unproductive to waste time with this nonsense unless you need to let everyone know how good and moral you are e.g. for a career in politics in some countries. But whatever works for you.
I think there's something called the minimal facts approach that shows that the best explanation of the facts is Jesus' resurrection:
Jesus died by crucifixion under Pontius Pilate.
Jesus' tomb was empty.
Jesus' disciples believed what they saw was the risen Jesus.
The skeptic and persecutor of Christians, Paul, was converted to Christianity.
The skeptic James was converted to Christianity.
Early Christian belief and proclamation of the resurrection of Christ showing its centrality to Christianity.
Also the Roman historians Tacitus and Josephus mention refer to Jesus and His crucifixion
Maybe all it takes is a leap of faith man, idk. Many people say they encountered Jesus through a leap of faith but I'm not saying that I'm better than anyone... I never said I was better than anyone. I'm not trying to show off how much better I am than you by what I stated.
If you look at what's happened among the main people of the Third Reich, you'll see there is a big amount of material which gives us info. Just the paper documents weigh literal tons. Meanwhile there is a grand total of two historical writeups touching on events in Jerusalem in Easter of 30 (?) AD in favor of the Christian view. The Gospels and Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews, both of them copied and possibly manipulated by many people not to mention the bias or ignorance of the original writers. The Greek historian Herodotus writes about things which are accepted but also about Greek gods and the Trojan war - does it make Zeus and Achilles real?
To some degree of certainty we can say that a guy called Christus was executed, sparking formation of yet another Jewish sect. Any details regarding the event that you might cite are wild speculations by interested parties. The idea that the laws of nature came to halt at an order of a supernatural entity is not "the best explanation of the facts" because it's not an explanation and we're not dealing with any facts.
So what would be the best explanation of the facts?
Seems it'll take him some time to answer, as he's been temporarily suspended...
Oh I didn't notice that...
Please do read again to which you're replying. The claims you posted are not facts.
In order to entertain you, I'll make a false assumption that people have really witnessed a seemingly dead guy walking again. Well that's a bit unusual, but unexplainable, really? People have survived executions before. Or the witnesses might have been deceived.
You can think up a lot of explanations but the thing is you don't have to since the evidence that any of these supposed facts to be explained actually happened is so weak. If a random guy on the street tells you he saw a pig fly, will you believe him?
This conversation we're having is ridiculous.
I consider myself Agnostic, but if there were a higher power, then I believe in Pantheism. Pantheism is a doctrine which identifies God with the universe, or regards the universe as a manifestation of God. Albert Einstein believed the same thing. Here is a great YouTube video that explains it very beautifully.
Basically humankind's goal is, through science, to understand the universe. As previous posters have stated, there are many different religions and all claim to be the truth or the one (as you can see between previous debates from @Castielle and @truthseeker17). They are absolutely certain that their religion is the right one. This idea bothers me because everyone is born into their religion. Einstein has a great quote:
"Common Sense Is Nothing More Than a Deposit of Prejudices Laid Down in the Mind Before Age Eighteen"
To me this is the same meaning that you are born into your religion and everything you are taught by your parents will be your common sense. Sometimes we need to question common sense and grow up.
Another interesting argument:
Or, we evolved to believe in a higher power as a mechanism to keep our groups/civilizations cohesive in order to survive. That's not really necessary anymore.
Anyways, as others have stated, this will be an endless debate without changing anyone's minds, but they are fun nonetheless
Do you believe that it's possible for supernatural occurrences to occur? And the things I posted were facts since most historians agree upon them... now I know you might jump up and say that's the appeal to majority fallacy but those historians have spent years studying Christianity and agree upon those things as facts.