P.A.W.S. - what are they, cure, duration

Fuck me at 4nmol you must of felt pretty shit, I'm sure I've been that low.

The weird thing is I have that with low t with the stubble. I have a full thick black beard if I shave, the shadow is their immediately and I also have quite a bit of body hair. So in my case it doesn't mean anything.

 

Enjoy Hell.

 

That's odd, you'd think it'd wouldn't grow at all, my last blood tests showed everything as ok, might go back and get it done out of curiosity.

 

I got my t levels check about a year and a half ago whilst I was still experiencing PAWS and it was 27nmol, I was convinced they were going to be low because of how I was feeling. Currently in the process of getting them rechecked which is taking a lifetime because it's through the NHS but I doubt they will have changed as I'm still feeling the same.

I reckon your PAWS was still very much real but the low t just exacerbated your symptoms but I don't know your whole story so that's just a shot in the dark really. It's definitely possible to be experiencing these symptoms which very much feel like a lack of testosterone, whilst still having high testosterone. Thanks for sharing the information @Big Lebowski, it's important to build up a better picture of what we are facing.

Also, my beard growth is complete dog shit and always has been. It's mainly down to genetics with that one and the ability of the hair follicle receptors to bind dihydrotestosterone I believe (don't quote me on that, just plucked it from the back of my mind!).

 

I personally never had my T-levels checked but I feel like mine are way higher since I'm doing noFap and being on hardmode. Sometimes there is this pumping energy going through my body, my beard growth is very strong those days. I had minor gaps in my upper lip beard but since about a few months and now I am having a gapless beard all over my face. It was pretty thick and hairy before but I feel like the last non-haired spots were finally filled up. My overall sex-drive seems to pretty strong as well. There is just this pretty constant gravity to women. Sometimes it's pretty lustful but more often it is feeling like a true libido. It's good parties and social events are currently shutdown in germany. I don't know if I could handle a party or gathering of people where beautiful women walk around everywhere. I see beauty in so many woman nowadays. Previous to noFap maybe 5-10% of women were appealing to me to the point of me being interested in them. Nowadays 50-80% of the women in my age-region are appearing attractive to me. Thursday wasn't funny at all. I was working and the weather in my town was just going nuts and I was making my deliveries and I fell in love at every street corner. I felt like a little boy again whose brain is experiencing the beauty of women for the first time. But I also pulled myself back a little and put everything into perspective. I am able to override my emotional responses a little bit better than the previous months. I can rationalize many things and view them as they are. I am also currently able to calm myself down and direct my thoughts better. All this is still happening at a very bad level. But if you come from a very fucked up level then this bad level is already progress. Yesterday I was able to maintain a pretty joyful and happy state in my overall being. It faded after about 2-3 hours but man do I fucking enjoy those hours where I just seem to be so happy about being alive and the overall experience of life. I am just looking forward to the day this becomes a subtle level of constant relaxation and satisfaction with just being alive.

This whole PAWS experience really teaches me to be grateful for everything you have. PAWS is like having a really bad clogged nose - to the point of not being able to breath through the nose. Whenever this happened I was laying wide awake in bed on my back and just hating the experience of having a clogged nose and I wondered what feeling healthy must feel like and how I wasn't grateful for being healthy when I was healthy. As soon as I got back healthy again I forgot about that experience. I think the most difficult thing is to never ever forget about the PAWS experience you lived through. I think remembering yourself about this PAWS episode from time to time will be the best defense for any kind of relapse. My big goal is to stick with hardmode and to not release at all. I know how a inmate sexual relationship to a woman can totally suck me in. It's just to good for me in order to be enjoyed in moderation and with reluctance. There will be a day when I will have slow, steady karrezza sex but this won't be happening until I truly found a woman that loves me from the bottom of my heart and who I love the same. This will just be the cherry on top and not the ice cream itself. I also analyzed that most woman that aren't open to the idea of karrezza or no sex at all aren't the women I am looking for. I am not trying to say this in a disrespectful but I made the discovery that many women have nothing more to offer then sex. It's their way of seducing a man and in some form having control over him. This isn't directly a negative thing but many women enjoy having a man at their feet that literally tolerates all kinds of misbehaviour because he is lowkey addicted to having sex with her. Just when I think about my ex-girlfriend. Yes it was fun being around her and she was supportive when it was to her advantage but the moment I stopped having orgasms something inside her worked against me. I even doubt that she was aware of this process but she suddenly became so distanced from me and the intimate relationship we previously had vanished. I got to know a fellow female student while I was going through a pretty though time back in Feb and march 2020 when my father had his initial brain aneurysma and fought for life over a whole month. We had so much fun doing things and getting to know each other but at the moment she realized I am not gifting her with great sex and thus instantly gained intimacy she slowly blocked me out of her life and turned against me. Sex is a really great for getting intimate with another person as it is so easy as its rewarded greatly by nature but its an automated process and when you don't take that route of intimacy directly through sex then many females get really insecure and something inside of them perceives you as a form of thread or uneasiness. I had a girlfriend back in 2014 when I had the most happiest days of my life and I avoided having sex for about 1.5 months right at the beginning of our relationshop and this was also the most beautiful time in our whole relationship. At the point we were having regular sex I slowly developed a resistance to her and was drawn more to novel females. I just recaptured in hindsight how nature was responsible for me no longer being attracted to her. The amazing sexual experiences saturated my brain to the point that she no longer could cause positive experiences to me in daily life with her presence and I ultimately blocked her away out of my life. I really know how both sides of the spectrum feel but I don't want to a relationship with any women ever again that is fundamented on a sexual predicament.

Overall I am feeling pretty okay the last few days and I am looking forward to being out of PAWS even more as the days pass. It started to become less painful to be in the process and the joy of the getting out of it steadily increases.

 

While it is completely true that I've suffered immensely for years before finding Nofap, and 100% I might also be annoying sometimes, I feel so deeply blessed to have finally found out what was happening to my head and learning that I can heal even after decades of abuse. Sadly, I think you're condition is more permanent. It's much deeper than porn. You're the only person here that I suspect will likely be tortured for the rest of your life, constantly overcompensating for whatever inadequacies cause you so much obvious pain. Porn is definitely not your only problem and everyone here sees it. We all roll our eyes when this guy pops in who fancies himself some kind of ultra tough guy self-declared "beast" who uses everything from steroids to cocaine and yet wants everyone to perceive him as some kind of brain expert, but no one can tell for sure if he has any insight of how unimpressive it comes across. TBH, the more you write the more I actually feel better about my own situation . But when you post again (and you will, I promise!) I will block that account also. It will be easy to spot because it'll be full of self-grandiose bravado and regurgitated internet drivel about brain chemistry, of which you literally know nothing! BTW... nobody thinks you're a research biologist, nobody thinks you're jacked, and nobody cares if you're tall. In the end, we only care about your recovery and if abstinence cured your PAWS.

Blocked.

Everyone else, have a great weekend! I'm actually having a pretty good week mood-wise and I hope you are too! And remember that the world's prisons are full of hypofrontal people with high T who lift weights. If that looks like happiness to you then the world is your oyster. Seize the day!

 

I don’t wanna partake in another discussion that has no bottom like some weeks ago but all I can say is the following: the mental well being gets out of control at some point. It’s like a pipe and suddenly bolts are popping out at some places and the water starts to leak. You start to patch the areas that leak and it might be good for some time but after a certain time the same areas are leaking again and new bolts are popping out. The water pressure on that pipe is to high.

It’s the same for our mental well being. You can use ADs, vitamins, supplementation, Testogels, anabolics, GABA like „medicine“ and all kinds of stuff. Yes you will feel better for some time but this all happens on a cost and isn’t sustainable. You wear out your receptors and eventually you will reach a point where the prior workarounds aren’t working anymore.

I am on the pursuit of happiness since I fell back into the darkness back in late 2014. Since then I tried everything to get back into homoestasis. Nothing worked and I tried everything. From supplements to diet to weight lifting like a Champ to no Internet. I tried so many things and everything is just a patch. It’s just a patch that keeps your mind occupied and feel well neurotransmitters flowing for some time but after all it’s not natural and a balanced system.

I don’t know why we constantly have to argue whether PAWS is responsible for all of this or not. I, for myself, accepted the fate of going through a year long clean hardcore streak in order to get onto the other side. If you constantly search for a solution or fix of your well being then you are just chasing another rabbit. You are just chasing a fix in the external world that ultimately is a lower form of substitute for your original problem. A short term fix for a longtime problem.

There are so many reasons why your T-levels are low. Taking testogel and anabolics won’t fix the cause of those levels. This is just symptomatic treating as Antidepressants are just symptom treating. One of the main causes for low T levels is a form of chronic stress that is caused by addiction and it’s withdrawal. High cortisol levels destroy your body and water is draining at so many places from the pipe. Addiction and withdrawal is messing up your fight or flight system and thus your stress response. Your body is in constant survival mode because your brain isn’t able to analyse the situation correctly. This crushes any form of balanced blood levels. Adrenaline and noradrenaline are outbalancing other neurotransmitters. You get heart palpitations. Tinnitus. All those chronic symptoms are basically stress reactions and the only sustainable solution to that is to reduce your stress levels by getting through withdrawal no matter how long that will take. Sure it’s wise to assist your body with supplements like zinc, magnesium, Vitamine B12, D2, C, omega oil but don’t expect that some supplements will solve all your problems. Your body knows very well how to produce enough testosterone. You don’t need to supplement it directly from outside sources as this will train your body to not produce anything on its own. Enough minerals and vitamins and Very little cortisol will be everything your body needs to produce just the right amount of any Hormone beside you having a rare illness that prevents this process.

Coming in here and bloating around that we are all pussies with a victim-complex while simultaneously telling your whole life story where you tell the story of tragic family events and what bad stuff happens to you individually is literally straight up retarded. You’re blaming a whole discussion for something that you are actually doing yourself. And to be clear: it’s nice that you stacked all forms of streaks. But switch PMO with cocaine and repeat that statement. „I had so many streaks where didn’t consume cocaine. 1 month, 3 months,4 months, 6 months, 9 months. Yet I didn’t feel better yet.“ You didn’t feel better yet because you kept coming back to your addiction. You either stop a certain addiction or you don’t. You either stop smoking or you are stacking streaks of being smoke free. Addictions aren’t working in streaks. You either are addicted or you’re not. Being abstinent for some time doesn’t equal being addiction free. If you have consumed opioids, had psychosis and trips where you broke your shoulder because of seizures then I wouldn’t be wondering if your brain needs recovery big time. I had a long amphetamine and mdma period and also consumed top shelf weed over a decade and yet I never had derailings like that and it takes up nearly 3 years this may before I finally feel somehow normal now. You either put in the work that is required for you to recover or you live with the pity and misery that you keep yourself in. But you don’t come in here insulting everyone and projecting your own negativity onto everyone else just because they don’t confirm your conceptual bias. I really don’t get the point of coming in here and talking against everyone, spreading negativity and judging all kinds of people. The only negativity I perceive in this thread that is criticised by the naysayers is the negativity they bring with themselves. We are here to all share experiences of one of the most difficult and painful processes that a human could go through. Of course there is some negativity involved but this also needs to be embraced if it’s dealt in a constructive manner.

After all I got to involved with this post already. Don’t spend energy on taking a stance against my comment. I won’t be starting a second big discussion again. I will notice any response and will keep the toxic stuff out of my reach as using the ignore button. And don’t get me wrong: I am all open for getting checked out medically and having imbalances in vitamins and minerals fixed but I also take the stance that our body knows the best what to do and how to get back in balance. You don’t need any modern synthetic medicine to feel normal again. You only need time and patience and that is something many people aren’t able to bring to the table because they are still trapped in a short term gratification although they think different of themselves.

 

I'm 50 now with a full beard but when I was 20 I couldn't grow a beard for shit. But also when I was 20 I pole vaulted around the house like a 3-legged sheriff so I agree that beard growth isn't a great indicator of T status. I'm pretty sure you're right about DHT. These days my T is around 600 ng/dl (20 nmol/L). It's not great but it's totally within a functional range, I can definitely keep muscle. You're totally right that PAWS symptoms can happen with normal T. For sure, PAWS are way more severe than the typical symptoms that middle age men experience.

 

No what I meant is the semen our balls produced returned to our body which contain nutrients vital for our system. I can literally hear cracking noises in joints, my upper and lower back when I stay on nofap. Also I can feel back pain if I start losing fluids watching too much p or mo.

 

I think there's a lot of truth in this. PAWS symptoms are an enigma to me. Everything is opposite world from normal.

Anything I take to lessen fatigue (stimulating) increases my anxiety. Anything I take to lessen anxiety (sedating) amplifies the depression and fatigue. Vigorous exercise that normally improves depression instead makes me even more tired and lethargic. Increasing testosterone is negated by increases in estrogen. Increasing dopamine is defeated by increases in norepinephrine and adrenaline. Increasing serotonin lowers dopamine and kills libido... and the list goes on and on. Almost anything you do to get symptomatic relief is futile because the brain is more complicated than we can understand. The brain adapts mostly to your experiences and your habitual behaviors. As far as I can tell the only long-term answer is to adapt to a life with as few artificial crutches as possible.

This is the process I think happens to most of us before withdrawal, that leads people to Nofap.com in the first place.

Chronic PMO -> PIED/PE -> Avoidance Behavior -> Low T

-> Social Defeat -> Anxiety/Depression -> Low T​

Then, if you're a heavy addict you get to have PAWS symptoms on top of it all which only makes a bad situation worse. The PAWS symptoms are on a spectrum from mild to extreme and everyone thinks theirs is as bad as it gets. In reality it seems to be highly variable based on the intensity and duration of the addiction. While we tend to focus on anxiety and anhedonia, the most debilitating symptoms are related to memory loss and loss of decision making and problem solving abilities. There is no way to fake competence and working memory. You either have it or you don't. The loss of executive function seen in severe PAWS cases can't be restored with physical exercise or by any change in attitude so you're forced to engage in this miserable extended waiting game.

I'm really starting to see a pattern that at the 12-24+ month mark (varied for relapses), as people here start to finally recover their God-given executive functions, that they naturally start to change their focus and comments to the importance of "can-do" attitudes and "moving on" with life. No doubt this is largely due to the fact that they actually "can do" what they couldn't the year before. I'm starting to think that we might even find that that transition in thinking is an important and expected benchmark in the recovery process. I've observed that people at this stage almost always lament that they even participated in the discussions they did when their symptoms were peaking. They tend to look down on people who are where they used to be and are just trying to make sense of it all. In other words, when you start to feel like the other people posting here are just pathetic losers and creating their own misery, it might just be a normal and positive sign that you no longer relate to people who are at an earlier stage in the struggle. I know that before PAWS there is no way in the world I could relate to someone in this state.

If that's true then I can't wait to be looking down on all you pathetic losers

 

You really seem to have some form of mental illness and I’m not pointing this out as a insult or anything but to just reflect how crazy and how detached from reality your behaviour really is. Creating multiple accounts to troll and trigger peoples reaction is fucked up as it can get. I also kinda feel sorry for you. You seem to be really confident that what you are doing is correct but in the end your ego is fully out of control and you’re getting eaten up by it. Anyone that insults other people based on their age has the intellectual maturity of a 10 year old. But enough said. Gonna report and ignore you. Creating multiple accounts to troll people is a joke. This whole noFap forum is a place where people are trying to get back their happiness to achieve something good in this world and to end their suffering. It’s a place where people go through years of anxiety and depression to finally find a solution and all you have to contribute is insulting, bloating around with science that might be correct at some points but which you nothing understand of and trolling. You are a disgrace to mankind for trolling and triggering reactions out of people that are suffering just for your own enjoyment. Anyone that doesn’t see the sheer craziness in this mans behaviour should really question its own moral compass.

 

Let's keep our discussions level-headed guys. We are all here for one goal and that is to defeat our addictions no matter what and how worst it is. We need not resort to name-calling or anything that is under the belt. Let's understand the fact that we need to lift each others up and be more compassionate as we can. More power to us all!

 

Multiple accounts to troll? Lol what are you a 14 year old girl on facebook having a drama fit? Lay off the drugs... Get off the screen, get help, you're going to cringe at yourself when you swing back...

 

I personally think that it is all related to the brain, not the nutrients in semen. Maybe if you are extremely malnourished.

 

Yeah this is bullshit. Go and get checked man, request a full checkup by your doctor or pay and go private. Get bloods done!

 

Yoo Big how things going man?

what seems to be the reason behind those PAWS and Flatline(Brain Fog)???

 

Hey man, for me it was a big awakening. Low testosterone basically, an unhealthy lifestyle with just about every bad habit. Porn played apart in draining and making me depressed but ultimately a bad, unhealthy lifestyle. I am shaking my lifestyle up completely and noticing benefits, month by month.

All to do with hormones with me.

 

I've noticed the same thing with joints - cracking and clicking, and back pain. Rightly or wrongly I have in the past attributed this to my immune system taking a hit, or inflammation being involved. I don't have a proper explanation for this, but I've also noticed that I'm more prone to colds and flu when these symptoms have been especially bad, which is why I mention the immune system.

 

You're right on some point. I also suffer from mental illnesses like bipolar disorder. I was and am also under influence of a drug and have been in the past) and working from home makes me an insane person. I apologize for the rough shit I was spewing at the suffering people. I have used some basic neurochemistry to explain PAWS. You have no idea what else I know about the brain and endocrine system. It is and always will be my passion. You guys tend to use a different approach. I also see some untrue statements so don't tell me a am just some basic addiction science quack. Anyway, I am in a dark place in isolation and what I experienced turned me onto a Joker kind of guy. The trolling was fun and interesting for me, to learn from people's reactions. I'm here to apologize, but I'm sorry I still have some skepticism, about the PAWS phenomenon. I still consider myself an evil sociopath with problems. I hope @MaskEd-Debator reacts civil if he unblocks me. Hypofronality and low dopamine receptors remain to be researched. The newest research says no.

 

You probably blocked me. But this simply is not true and plain bullshit. It may sound smart the way you put, but it's mostly seen in primates in studies. It probably works for the human endocrine system, I give you that.

A lot of guys had our blood-work checked and T levels came back normal. I always monetized my T and other hormone levels and it all came
back fine. I still felt unmotivated and like shit. It's he overstimulated reward system that got most of us here.