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Discussion in 'Significant Other Journals' started by Bel, May 1, 2017.
Maybe it's better for this to be answered in private so it doesn't give anyone ideas.
@Wazzbler , I literally ask myself all the time wtf am I doing. I've been in a shit ton of serious relationships , 3 engagements, and I've always been the one to be the complete douche and bag out and get bored first. I.e. cheat. With this guy, hell no would I ever in a thousand years knowing the extent of how f-ed up he was would i ever knowingly do this to myself. You see I don't fully understand why I'm still here. To put it in simple terms, yes I love and care about him even though I feel that has definitely changed in its definition and I have literally known all this crap was going on. Definitely not to the extent it was occurring but I knew. I'd question him and get met with these puppy dog beaten to the ground eyes that he had told me the truth about everything and he was trying to get past it all. Only my gut knew it wasn't so. He also never alienated himself from me . If I left the scene, only then did he back off me some. But I always knew it was still lurking. I wasn't completely stupid. Then like a damn puzzle you can't stop putting pieces together. It felt like my world exploded in a good way when basically I was able to confirm all of my suspicions and more.
To that point @Broken3 , he had moved back in with me after 4 months of seperation. I had seen him one time over Christmas and my gift was a limp penis from him. A couple of months later he moved in with me. I set a baby camera up in the guest room he used. I was completely tormented about being with him. I wanted it and I didn't at the same time. I began to notice sex became longer again as opposed to the 5 minute interludes I've come to know all my life as normal. After one particularly disappointing episode I sent him back to his room. I laid there a few minutes until deciding f it, turn the camera monitor on....and there he was phone in one hand dick in the other. Scrolling like a mad person, or much like a crack fiend searching for that fix. Honestly I laughed watching it. He probably heard me in the next room bc he tucked the phone down quick but when I managed to stifle my laughter to silence back he went maniacally scrolling and jerking off. I sound callous as hell but finally concrete proof my gut instincts were dead on after years of being told I was wrong. I almost decided to friend zone him completely but my amusement grew to fury...I then said f this shit. Got up flung open his door and grabbed his phone, which ironically was my old phone I lent him and begged him not to go to porn sites on mostly bc even though my info was deleted, I would get freaking whore hook up emails to my email....which boys and girls in case you didn't know , every device you use , every little bit of personal information on that phone gets virtually raped by malware and viruses....no do not make me laugh and assume your incognito browsing crap is safe. There's a theory behind the development of incognito that even suggested a few years ago that it was developed knowing human nature would be to use it to hide all the dirty laundry....but then be collected too. Anyway, I grab the phone and he's got everything open. I start scrolling the craigslist emails in gmail, hundreds of them as well as pictures he was sending out....yeah the good ones showing dick and face, yup he's an idiot, as well as the nastiest things I've seen he recieved. I think that it all just blew his mind in the moment. I assumed the secret accounts were there but I didn't go so far as to assume he was trolling hook up sites. Surprise!!! So that's how all the tea got dumped. I stopped sitting around on my ass believing his bullshit and decided if he wanted to play low and dirty, I could far exceed his game.
Sorry, I literally did not see this but maybe if more Pmo'ers would be wondering who or what is watching.....maybe that causes them to think twice before they attempt to screw over another person. Jmho
Yeah it sucks that when you catch an addict and the find out how they get more sneaky and better at hiding things. They need to man up and stop being destructive to other people. They need to fix themselves before involving others. My hub is a good man too. He has always been good to me I just noticed the same type of pattern I've read on here. He doesn't get as hard as previous other experiences I've had. Doesn't seems quite as into me and responsive to "normal" sexual behavior. And the frequency is just not there. I've been in two other serious relationships both of which sex was daily or at least 4-5x/wk. Even as newly weds it was not "over the top can get enough". I didn't think anything of it when we were dating bc we were "trying to refrain" until marriage but would "slip up" 1-2x/wk so in my head I'm think damn if we're trying to "refrain" then it's game on after the wedding..but nope That was strange to me but like I said he is good to me and good man. How frustrating!
I don't know if I'm at the bottom of it all just yet, but I can tell you the moment I find that he got physical with any other person his ass is gone. Actually in just thinking about it , it would not surprise or hurt me bc I've been sliced open so many times I find the recurring scar tissue to be desensitized to the pain. Emotionally I've compartmentalized him to a very basic status of my romantic love has dwindled down to almost non existent and my compassion as a friend has quadrupled. His family are the typical we care more about money than anything else, I think he was probably victimized by another family member in early childhood as well has his sibling, his mother definitely was but she represses almost every bit of it and wonders why she's got migraines. I was suffering from horrendous almost constant headaches up until what I call my night of liberation with the hidden camera. I've honestly felt freaking awesome since that whole debacle went down.
To my PASO's credit he at least right now and these past few weeks he's been the most transparent he's ever been. He's on here every day even if he's worn out, he's committed ,finally seriously, to therapy to truly get to the root of the problem other than blindly thinking oh I just like sex a lot. He will eventually make a good partner for someone. It may be too late for me to forgive and I definitely don't forget. I hold grudges forever, but that's me and it's worked fine for all my life. Starting anew has never been my weak point. Perhaps I was meant to go through all of this to make sure I never just hand trust away again. I've also contemplated finishing my bachelor's degree with an emphasis on psychology bc honestly the lack of competent therapists in this field is utterly lacking. I will never tell a partner it's their fault in essence that the other took it upon themselves to attempt to demolish both of their lives. People need to start being held to higher standards of accountability and stop the blame game of another person.
@Broken3 the best advice I can give you is do not believe your gut instinct is being dishonest with you. I had a teacher who once said a gut instinct will never lie bc it has no tongue. How true indeed. Also don't play soft ball , the longer you take to get answers to your own questions the longer this bullshit will go on. This is a war to an extent and you've got to prepare yourself for battle.
Helpful hints from my 4 years of deception: Do not blindly accept the words as truth. Spy, spy, dig, and spy some more. Set traps . Ditch the damn TV completely and movies with TnA, avoid them at all cost til your PA can stop jumping into the sex cesspool his mind has become. Social media needs to go. They are ALL P-subs.....or even gateways to porn and porn sites themselves. I installed qustodio on his phone and yes while I never questioned Facebook and Gmail activity after awhile you start seeing patterns on the daily reports. None of these are fail safe and it's easy to get burner phones but the sad truth is many PA'S are just too freaking lazy. Which is sadly good in my case.
Wazzbler that is one red-pilled post! If you're not familiar with that term, short answer is that it's a good thing.
He covers his tracks pretty well. I only caught him 3yrs ago bc he must have gotten lazy bc I'm sure I checked before and he came up clean. I def trusted my gut instinct when I woke up at 3a 3yrs ago and felt the need to check his history. I laughed at first like you until I came upon an "adult friend finder" acct and became furious. fortunate for him there was no communication on there (he said he only used it for pics and videos). I just recently set limited adult content on his idevices and put Covenent Eyes on his devices but I'm pushing him to get on here too and make a plan to get over this. When questioned he tells he its not an everyday thing and he does spend hours doing it. He also claims that it has been a month since his last P but if that were the case I would think he would have a bigger appetite.
@Bel how are you doing lately?
Doing good I'd say. My PASO continues to be pretty transparent, an action I only believe bc I treat him ,unknowingly to him to the extent, like someone I don't believe and basically I will hear words and only affirm them through actions. Actions that occur when he thinks I'm not around. So far he's been good. Not perfect but I'd definitely say no typical sleazy snake lipped lying any way.
He started therapy . I'm not sure how I feel about the therapist. In the second session she basically told him porn is fine until obviously you find that it causes more harm than you thought. Really, wow a four year degree for that idiotic stance. Not to mention when he was 8 or 9 he had a friend the same age who basically dominated him as in bdsm actions, yep naked, they performed oral sex on each other and this fool of a therapist says she believes that was along the lines of harmless juvenile exploration......wtf.....I know I'm not a guy but I kind of feel guys just don't do that stuff to one another that young...if ever if they are heterosexual ....unless one was abused and thus became the abuser on someone weaker than him. So.....that isn't really making me real thrilled but perhaps there's a bigger picture she's trying to paint and not come across as too judgemental too quick. Who knows.
We have to work with each other bc our work requires somewhat of a loose partnership. That goes good though I generally stay to myself and my tasks.
He's doing a 30 day hard mode that he's over half way on. I just don't feel like 30 days is going to accomplish much. It's hard being in a relationship of sorts , I'm really trying to be supportive on a friendship level but the SO side of me is on its last leg.
I'd def get a different therapist! That therapist obviously has not done enough research on the subject of addiction. It is crazy that these ppl have degrees...blows my mind!
So today was a bad day. Not for my PA but for me. Well I might venture a guess that I have no idea the damage I did to him. Time will tell I guess.
Everything has been building and boiling just beneath my parameter of self control. And today it just exploded. There was a million nuanced reasons why, I'm constantly feeling like I'm trying to claw my way out of a black hole with all of this shit and I'm getting no where. It affects me physically and psychologically to the point that I have more days of not even recognizing who or what I've become or more aptly becoming. I'm disgusted with myself. I'm pissed, I'm bitter, I'm resentful. These are not what I used to be. I used to be happy , fun, carefree. Now I just feel like a dark gloomy lurker of happier times before the PA. Every time someone says "Oh what a great person " (he is) I literally want to rip their face off. So today I got triggered by his working situation and went off the deep end. In my mind I was telling myself what I was about to do was for my greater good and welfare, that I'd force him to fuck up. I actually pulled up some nasty ass porn site on my phone and kept shoving it in his face telling him to just go back to it. Go back to it and leave me the hell alone. He kept looking away and that pissed me off bc I felt like he was being weak, as if he wasn't even man enough to look his demon in the eye. I mean I sure as hell had to whether I liked it or not thanks to him and now he is looking away. Why why? I screamed doesn't it turn you on? Isn't it awesome ....fill in the crude derogatory comment of your choice I hurled it. Then I got pissed that basically he's created this lunatic who would even do this shit. I got mad bc now my frigging phone was probably going to get some nasty goddamn virus bc I got shoved into a corner by the warring factions that used to be sanity and reasoning, and pulled up my first ever disgusting porn site. It was all his doing , whether he knew it or not. I cracked, I fractured. And now I feel disgusted with myself bc I go from that was horrific of me to do to him , to fuck him he had it coming weak ass pathetic excuse of a human he is back to I morphed into that same latter description. I don't know for sure if I've reached the end of my rope or I'm just bat shit crazy. I still cannot give a solid reason why , why I wanted to push that envelope. Do I want it over finally? Most times it feels like an absolute yes. I know I am out of here I see or hear one more porn related anything on his side. What screws with me the most is that he's been PMO free for 50 days, and though most of his actions suggest he's truthful I cannot get it out of my head that just maybe he's upped his con game to a whole new level and thus why should I give a damn any more.
Oh man I'm sry your feeling so hurt today. I get it we do have our bad days and sometimes lashing out like that feels good at the moment...and then you level out and realize you now feel even worse. It sucks! I struggle with questioning character too. My ex was so manipulative that now that I am dealing with this w/ my Hubs I often question if he's being honest or deceiving me too. The only thing that keeps me sane is telling myself the truth always comes to light eventually and that if that's the kind of person someone really is than there is nothing you could do about it. Hang in there! Noone deserves to have to go through this but if he's taking the steps to get better its only up to you if you want to give him a chance or not. Hugs!
Thanks Broken. I know and knew better. Hours after I can only say I feel like shit, not just for attempting to jeopardize his reboot but for becoming a person who would do something so stupid. I think I grossly underestimated the damage all of this has done to my psyche. Or maybe I have and I'm looking for that one last straw that I can say did it in.
You'd think I'd find gratitude and joy in his progress but all I see are more potential trap doors for me to plummet through.
Hey @Bel I don't know about you but for me success equals hoping which means you have all the further to fall if they relapse/reset. So you'd almost prefer to get it over with. Find SOME peace. I wish to gawd there were some (ANY) guarantees with recovery. But there aren't. That's where the trust thing comes into play. It's SO hard but I guess at some point we have to let go one way or the other. Good luck and hugs coming your way.
Wow. This was both important and difficult to read.
I know this story very, very well ... but I know it because I'm an addict who was repeatedly unfaithful and manipulative to his own wife during our 6-year marriage. Porn, compulsive masturbation, Craigslist ads, hook-up sites, all of it. We had four separate, very traumatic discoveries of my behavior, each one of which completely ripped her heart to shreds. The final straw ended up sending me to inpatient treatment for 45 days to the tune of $50,000. We finally divorced in February, though we still have a good relationship (considering) and love one another unconditionally.
I don't know your man, but here are some of the things I've learned while working a program of recovery:
- Sex addiction is far more difficult to conquer than substance abuse. I've never struggled with substance abuse myself, but I'm friends with literally dozens of sex addicts who have, and literally 100%--every single one of them--said kicking drugs/alcohol was easy by comparison.
- My wife (ex-wife ... I'm not used to saying that) is the best person I know. She is the only person who stood by my side and loved me despite my repeated failings. She always believed in my ability to recover. But whenever I got discovered and realized she was still going to stay, the f***ing addiction would rear its head and essentially say, "see, you don't have to suffer any real consequences ... you can still get away with just a little fun on the side." I can't speak for other addicts--but my addiction gave me a remarkable ability to take the best and purest love I've ever known for granted. I have so much shame and pain over that. I hate how much my wife has hurt because of me.
- I never acted out sexually with men (I like to joke that I'm so straight, I eat my hotdogs sideways) ... but I damn sure acted out with women. A lot of them, unfortunately. Surprisingly, after a ridiculous number of partners, a decent percentage of them unprotected, I only had one instance where I contracted chlamydia. That being said: a clean blood test is not proof that he hasn't been with anyone in the flesh.
- Sex addicts lie so often that it's nearly a language. If your SO is working hard in recovery and you decide to make another attempt at having a relationship, I'd recommend having him do a polygraph test. Many of the married/dating sex addicts I'm in meetings with have used polygraphs as a tool to help re-establish trust. You can have the polygraph expert include any question you want, and you can get as specific as you want. If you suggest this and he scoffs or totally dismisses it, that might tell you something. But if he agrees and you both go through with it, you'll be able to make the best decision for yourself based on having your questions answered truthfully and verified to be true.
- My wife found incredible support (and fantastic friends) by seeking out a support group for partners. You might look into it. As someone who spends a lot of time in 12-step meetings, I can confidently say that sharing your story with others in the flesh is a lot more powerful than using an online forum like NoFap (though I'm still a fan, obviously).
- You have endured severe betrayal in your relationship. Having said that, you also sound a lot like my wife. You love deeply, and clearly you care so much about this man. In the end, you need to come to grips with whatever you decide is best for you. A lot of people will tell you to run--just like they told my wife. But they're not the ones who have to live with whatever decision you make--so whatever you choose, make sure it's you doing the choosing, and not anyone else. And his recovery can't be about saving your relationship. He needs help even if you guys break up and never speak again, and his recovery is more likely to stick if he's doing it for himself instead of doing it to satisfy you.
Anyway ... I'm not trying to cross-talk or be Mr. Advice here. But in so many ways, I used to be the guy you've been describing in this thread. By the grace of God, a lot of that has been getting undone. I still have so far to go. But I'm outside of it enough now that I can look back with some clear hindsight and maybe offer a helpful perspective.
Thank you for sharing your story.
Oh. My. Goodness. This has me in tears.
Really torn up at what we ignorant, stupid, porn-addled, arseholic, porn addicted men have done to our women. To think that this is how my wife must have felt, or feel at times towards me shakes me to my core. I am fortunate that I realized what I was doing, saw the harm it was causing and took action (chastity device) and confessed before my wife found out, which thankfully made our recovery easier than most. I know for a fact that if she had been in your shoes, and realized why I was being such a (add own expletive), she would most likely have ripped my balls off, amputated my dick and shoved them where the sun don't shine.
I wouldn't blame her, and I don't blame you either. You are more than entitled to be furious and so much more, and any pain we receive at your hand after all the hurt we caused pales into insignificance compared to what we did to you.
The betrayal, the infidelity, the cheating, the lying, the behavior and words we use in an attempt to hide our addiction must be the worst pain for you to endure. Sure, we try and change, sure we make promises, sure we tell you that we have stopped. How are you supposed to believe us? We got away with our lies for so many years, so expecting your total trust after a few weeks or months is never going to happen, and we have no choice but to accept that you may NEVER trust us again.
We did this. We hurt you. We made you suffer. You need some relief and we deserve some payback, so read on:
A recent survey showed that porn is one of the main catalysts for the unacceptable amount of rape and murder of women in South Africa - and usually most rapists/murderers walk free.
As shown in a Television documentary a while ago, this is starting to change. A lot of the black people (tired of the inefficiency of the courts) are going back to their tribal ways. If a girl is raped, instead of being made out to be the criminal in court, and watching the rapist walk free, the elders gather together, and in the darkest hours of the night, take the girl with them and fetch the rapist. He is then stripped naked and tied to a lamp pole. Then, the rape victim is given a sjambok (type of whip) and she whips him until she has got the anger and hurt out of her system. Even that is not the end of the story. Once the victim is finished, the elders then continue the beating. I know this sounds brutal and inhumane, but I guarantee that the victim will be less traumatized and scarred for life than if she had spent months in court only to be made out to be a slut and "asked for it". And the rapist? Trust me - he will be sorry, and the chance of this happening ever again almost zero.
I didn't tell this to shock you, but to tell you that as a man that managed to pry himself out of the clutches of porn, that I agree with you. Us using porn raped your mind, murdered your spirit and destroyed your love. I believe that we should be punished in the same way as the rapist I mentioned. We definitely won't like like it, we will cry for leniency, we will sob our pain out. But instead of saying sorry and believing everything is fine, we will surely develop some empathy with our victims' hurt.
@Bel, I cannot undo the harm and hurt you feel, and sadly no one else can either. I am truly so sorry you ended up feeling this way and know that you didn't do this to yourself - we did. Us useless shit for brains, porn-addicted fuckers did this to you. We wouldn't stop, even when we saw your hurt. We were just too arrogant, selfish and spiteful to care more for someone else than our desire for porn. We could have stopped if we really truly had to, and some of us have. But for us to expect everything to be like it was before you found out is asking for the impossible.
Be angry. You deserve to be. Take time to heal. Learn to trust yourself again. Learn to love yourself again. Because, without these, you might never be able to love others again. Express your anger, rage and hurt. If we have truly "repented" of our sick ways, we can, must and will take it.
Just don't let your anger consume you and destroy you, because if you allow it to, you have most likely have swapped his porn addiction for one of revenge.
And as to the road you choose to take next?
Very simple: if you cannot accept it, then change it. If you cannot do either, then get out of it.
With a bleeding heart, and new eyes, please accept my sincere apology for everything we men have done.
Respectfully, I don't know how this is supposed to be helpful.
This sounds like the Emperor, telling Luke to embrace his hatred and join the dark side.
It's absolutely valid for @Bel to feel horribly betrayed. It's absolutely valid for her to feel anger and rage toward her partner. But responding with a bunch of name-calling and condemnation isn't going to help the situation.
This addiction thrives on a shame cycle. We feel like garbage, so we act out sexually for some temporary relief. Then we feel like garbage because we acted out sexually, so to numb the pain we do it again ... and again ... and again ... on to infinity.
Calling an addict a 'useless shit for brains, porn-addicted fucker' only adds fuel to that fire. It makes the addict go, "you're right. I am useless. I am worthless. It's no use trying to get better. No one can ever love me because of all the harm I've done. I might as well kill myself."
When @Bel got angry and tried shoving some porn in her man's face, that was an expression of her anger. None of us would really fault her for reacting that way. But that kind of stuff can be incredibly damaging. "Are you kidding me, SuperFan? All she has had for the last four years is damage, and you're worried about him?" It's a fair question, and I'm not saying she has no right to react emotionally. I'm just saying that it won't help the situation, and will probably make it worse.
When you're an addict, you already feel horrible about yourself. If you're lucky enough to have someone in your life who knows your failings, knows your story, and still chooses to love you, then it can feel especially catastrophic when that person starts throwing your addiction in your face. Every day, I'm thankful to God that my wife never personally attacked me or called me names because of my addiction ... and if anyone had a right to attack me personally, it was her. She understood the role of shame in this addiction, and she wasn't going to make it worse.
Hey buddy, @SuperFan calm down!
First and foremost I am referring to MYSELF and my behavior when I was still doing PMO.
Secondly, this wasn't aimed at you, but the men who continue to use porn, deny it, and abuse their SO for years. Most refuse to even acknowledge they caused ANY hurt or are even addicted, or use the "poor me" addict excuse to justify their behaviour. I wont' but if the shoe fits...
Sadly I understand the role of shame. I have used it all along in trying to "out" the porn usage. In hindsight I should have used what I used on other guys and basically put on yet another Academy award winning performance about how hot doing it to "fill in the blank" porn genre always got me . Depending on their reaction to such , I made my official status for each as hell no time to go or definite prospect to dig further with.
But for some completely moronic reason I trusted this guy right out of the box. I immediately thought innocent until proven guilty where as in all past relationships it was guilty until proven innocent.
Shaming him only ever made me feel better. Before I had proof of it all, he basically let me go on my tirades like yeah yeah whatever I'm sorry , I will stop I'm horrible blah blah blah....then carry on bc even as he mouthed the words he was calculating his next fix.
Now sadly I enjoyed his more believable pain yesterday, but it became like a drug to me I wanted to see more, as if making him feel fucked up more somehow validated me and how he made me feel. Basically like we are both in a plane. I'm piloting and he tells me he forgot to fuel it completely and instead of saying ok let's see how we can safely land this thing I'm just like screw it. I'm nosediving this bitch into the first mountain I see.
It's a frightening place to be in emotionally. He made me feel certifiably insane so long about his porn and sex addiction that I just threw my hands in the air and gave up. Apparently I AM crazy and stupid and an idiot, after all how can I actually feel anything when every attempt at trying to make the truth surface just had him convincing me to doubt my own instincts. Every day now is me on repeat telling him yes I hear you but I don't believe you. Because honestly I just don't. And this is what is finally making me say leaving is becoming a more apparent option if some miracle of sorts doesn't happen bc my timer is about up.
Right now he's doing hard mode and he's 40 to 50 some days into it if he's telling the truth. But I'm doubtful bc his persistence at being physical, not sex just always up on me ,like in a store he feels the need to grab me and kiss me. Now some women would be all omg romantic and I'm like please knock the shit off. I'm not a pda type person he's known this but he's always had this behaivor of almost making me feel in public and private like he's infringing on my personal space. I just go into hands up auto mode back off me stance. It never feels romantic it feels controlling and territorial. I also tend to notice ALOT more of it say if my shirt is more revealing . That in itself has me totally doubting his true progress which in turn only seems lately to infuriate me more.
"I want you to be the person you were when I met you."
This is the quote of the century for me. I might have it engraved on my tombstone bc I will never be again the person I was before becoming unwittingly involved with a porn addict. How easy it must be to live in the mindset of "I'm not actively fucking up so everything is great and will return to splendor."
This is what he said to me after I shattered into a complete crying mess this morning. This after he did not stop himself before deciding to engage me in sex at day 88 no PMO. He's at day 102 or something no PM, or at least he says so. And I'm not going to lie , I wanted to have sex. I freaking missed it....bad. But there I was mind reeling during it bc he still is not 100%. Maybe he's 70% but it crushed me that at almost 90 days he still isn't 100% erect. Where did my mind go? Right where you think....he obviously has been making a mockery of my belief in his abstinence from PMO ....but if it were the truth then why this all again . He came but still it took longer than I had been led to believe there too. Not saying more than 5 minutes but I thought it would have been more like he wouldn't have even made it in. He claims anxiety over actually doing it and being scared. To me only guilt reduces to fear .
So now I'm an emotional basket case. He claims he abstained...though I noticed recently the past week or so that his journals were lacking and we argued last night bc he'd rather play games on his phone than look at the journal or NoFap seriously. It's all way too reminiscent of the pre NoFap days. He says I'm wrong but.....I just don't know if he can be believed any more.