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Discussion in 'Rebooting - Porn Addiction Recovery' started by KeenEye, Mar 1, 2015.
So are you saying that masturbation is more detrimental at rewiring your brain than porn?
I would probably say that this undermines the research done by Gary Wilson. He says that porn rewires the brain due to dopamine flooding the brain. So porn is just plain bad..and wrong..for your brain and the world. It doesn't do any good for anyone.
The last time I looked at porn I ended up not MO'ing. This was a change for me since everytime I used to watch it, it would always lead to MO.I think that this was a big change for me. Unlike most people who would watch P and then M this is a major change. I think what I did was reverted my brain and by doing so I told it "whenever you look at P you are going to feel pain because there is no O" or something along those lines. Basically I resisted the urge to M which most likely changed my brains behavior system. This is what rebooting is all about. Eventually I will get rid of the P and be done with PMO forever.*EDIT* I am completely done with porn. I will never watch it again. I will never masturbate again either. Period. You should do the same.
guys let me clarify some things:
1. PMO should be quit altogether by us fapstronauts! I am in no way saying porn is not a problem. All I'm saying is that porn is the prelude to masturbation, which is the real problem. Fantasy, virtual sex (as in webcam interactions), video game sexual scenes...etc all count as porn to me because I'm on nofap.
2. I think porn makes us so excitied (dopamine production and such) because we always masturbate after porn. I get even more excitement from fantasies, and fantasies aren't mentioned in the Great Porn Experiment. Do you remember that you were initially disgusted or turned off by porn? or a better example, how most girls are disgusted by it? It was through the act of having sex with porn and fantasies that we wired our brains to them. Gary Wilson is a great man and he started all this. But I think the guys included in Gary Wilson's reboot reports, at least the majority of them, quit porn AND masturbation. ALthough Gary Wilson seems convinced now that masturbation is also a problem, because there are articles on YBOP that say so. I'm forever thankful for his initiative for reversing the oversexualization process, and I'm not undrmining his research, but he may have initially undermined the fact that MO is the real problem.
Masturbation may have been around throughout the human history, but I can never imagine that it was done as frequently as today. I also think that until the last century, masturbation was thought of as a vice before the sexualized culture dominated the modern world.
This thread may also be helpful for guys who quit porn but still masturbate. It's their choice of course (but is it really a choice? - another matter), but I want them to realise that masturbation is at least as equally problematic as porn, while really it's much worse.
They are both the real enemies. Both are bad in their own ways and they are synergetic together, which creates a whole new drug called PMO.
Whenever I try to watch porn without masturbation it gives me horrible brain fog. I mean it's almost unbearable and things like driving a car ain't safe to do after watching porn.
Also, when I only watch porn I watch it A LOT and I know you other addicts do the same. It's like when you watch a lot of gore, it starts to desensitize you. Soon watching a guy kill a dog doesn't affect you anymore. Same happens with porn.
So while masturbation drains your male energy, the porn fucks up your brain. I don't see why you'd want to antagonize just one of them, because they both are bad for you.
I agree Notafraid. As I said earlier, porn has a strong negative brainfog effect on us because we're used to having sex with it. Our primitive part of the brain does not know that it's not real sex. At this point while we are on nofap, PMO is inseparable. But I'm talking about masturbation generally, that it is the real problem. For the sake of practice, we should definietly see PMO as a single thing. This was more of a discussion and I didn't mean to create doubt or confusion about the problems with porn. It was actually in my intent that nofappers would be convinced to also quit masturbation, at least the ones who only quit porn.
The difference is the chemicals released looking at P. Huge releases of dopamine.
You get much less release from just jacking it and it's more steady, not a over flooding of the receptors.
I think masturbation is ok, at younger ages teens, but there is really no reason to do it when you are in your 20's.
But I disagree Thanatos! In most of my relapses I didn't even watch porn. I masturbated to fantasies (some of them quite innocent, as no dehuminzation was involved, and others were things that happend in real life). That said, fantasies are ugly too in that they lead to masturbation, and for me fantasies and porn a non existent nowdays. But my point is: I masturbated without porn and I went through the same terrible effects that PMOing gives you. I've noticed this like 40-50 times!
KeenEye had you completed a 90 day reboot at that point?
I have not completed a 90 day reboot, so I can't say how it will make me feel then, but I would assume that your brain may feel worse, because you are producing more dopamine during M and less dopamine after M which interrupts your reboot.
We are all individuals though and not everyone has the same reaction to the same "substance", M being the substance.
I'll keep an open mind on this issue, but I don't even want to think about MO'ing at this point, I may see things your way after my reboot and I would be ok with that.
Let me qualify that statement: I actually do think you should stop watching porn, as well as movies and commercials. Because all of those DO influence your mind. There is good reason the crazy prizes for TV commercials get paid. People don't believe advertising has an effect on them, but it actually does.
However, compared to the loss of energy, confidence, creativity, and what not, caused by MO, it is a minor problem.
As long as you don't M, I'm happy
No I've never went 90 days thanks to binging after relapses. I've observed and thought about porn without masturbation and masturbation without porn, however, and I always strongly believed that porn serves the real problem which is masturbation.
For myself, after I go 90 days, I'll never masturbate or watch porn again! I've been ruined too much by PMO to ever convince myself that they are okay within limits. If I am aroused, I should be aroused by a real girl and fulfill my sexual desires with her. Being turned on at home and masturbating to it is the worst thing I can do to myself nowdays.
I agree with you Immor!
Everybody thinks they have that control in the beginning. The fact is, if you keep putting something like P into your brain, it WILL have an effect eventually. You know, I visited Munich a few years ago, which is where the Third Reich started. People often forget that for many years, Adolf Hitler was viewed as a harmless lunatic. Eventually he got his message into the brains of the people in Germany at that time, and eventually the same people who previously thought he was a lunatic were electing him as Chancellor. That's similar to how P works. It keeps putting the same messages into your brain, and eventually you'll find yourself looking at random women in the street and thinking "Wow, I wanna F her". I know, I've done it, but only since I discovered P.
I'm not sure that's what those doctors and scientists are actually saying. I've never heard of one doctor say that P is normal or healthy, but I've heard plenty say that it's a problem. Sure, they say that MO can be healthy in that it cleans out your system and reduces the risk of prostate infection, but even then I don't hear any of them advocating we should do it several times a day they way a lot of PMO addicts have. Doctors and scientists are some of the smartest people in the world, and before we dismiss them, we should at least listen to what they are actually saying.
How unnatural would our fantasies be without porn? Serious question. There have been times when I've been away on camping trips without P, where I've MO'd. Most of the time, I don't even think about fantasies when I do it, I just concentrate on my own pleasure. Generally when I've MO'd without P, it's only been a case of "scratching an itch" after a few days without it. The times I've indulged in crazy fantasies have only come after viewing P, and escalating from there.
For me, the biggest danger of MO is that it drives me to seek out P to "enhance the experience", which is why I'm on this site in the first place. The reason I need to quit MO is because, like many others, I can't quit P without doing it. However, I genuinely believe that had I never discovered P, my MO would never have spiralled the way it has.
I wrote a long response to your reply but I realised that this argument is pointless!
Just in short, I have noticed too many times that I feel terrible whether I masturbate to porn, masturbate to fantasy, M to a music video, a picture, or a bag of chips. And it's not guilt, I assure you.
We can't blame the porn industry for objectifying women. The porn industry only helped us and gave us new scenarios which we can put women into. We objectify them ourselves by masturbating to the thought or scene of them. My cousin who is also on nofap, and has no access to the internet, said he felt terrible after having relapsed after 60 days of abstinence from PMO.
This has been a really good discussion with some great point of view insights. Here's my two cents and I'd love to get your thoughts on this. I believe that your age plays a significant role in which side of the argument you fall on with regard to the "real" enemy: MO or P. My hypotheses is that young men see more evil in P whereas gents of my generation (I'm in the 40+ forum) are battling with excessive/compulsive M where P is just a symptom or associated prop or vehicle to get that O fix.
P has simply meant a better way for me to achieve more O's. I'm addicted to the O and have pursued some shitty behavior to get it. Many other guys on the 40+ board can cite all sorts of acting out behaviors (prostitutes, dating websites, infidelity, voyeurism, etc.), that don't have anything to do with "high speed porn". My pursuit of the O was my way of dealing with life. For you young guys, you began by checking out P, getting hooked (addicted) and landed here with all sorts of issues.
But don't get me wrong, my excessive M has created the same issues all of us are battling in varying degrees (PIED, ED, social anxiety, self esteem, etc.).
Bottom line - we're all in this nofap/PMO zone together, we just used different entrances. Stay strong gents!
Thanks for sharing your view! I don't know if the hypothesis applies because I'm 20 and I never had much problem with porn. I have masturbated mostly to fantasies. Ever since I started nofap, most of my relapses were MOing to fantasies and I would use porn on my binges.
But it is absolutely true that PMO have no place in our lives anymore, at least the fapstronauts who mean to never PMO again.
This is one of the most interesting threads I have ever come across on this site.
It could use your opinion too. A great thing about nofap is it's mostly about people's experiences, and the challenge itself creates great character in most fapstronauts with practical wisdom. So seeing as you have completed 262 days yourself, what can you say about the connection between zombie-mode, porn, and masturbation?
I think it is possible to learn objectification of women without P. When I was young I used to masturbate mainly to fantasies involving the girls in my class, and sometimes to the Sears, and Kohls clothing catalogues. Even once or twice to National Geographic. I was mainly masturbating to fantasies with the occasional P until college when I got access to high speed internet without parental supervision. Then it was P all the way... but before that it was anything I could get my hands on, nude scenes in movies, clothing catalogues, fantasies, pixelated video games (yes I M'd to the fairies in the Super Nintendo Zelda: A Link to the Past and N64 Ocerana of Time many times). And while I certainly used porn from an early age, it was inconsistent. And yet the objectification of women was still there and I used it to fuel my fantasies, and I'm wondering whether I picked it from the culture and it just soaked into me, or whether my first porn site preceded all this and was the cause. I remember my first porn site clearly (wasn't even a porn site, really, it was non-nude but licentious), because I was caught, but I think I was M'ing and fantasizing even before then.
My case is very similar to yours, Mumchance, and that's the evidence I have for the point I'm trying to make on this thread. I was never attached to porn. I would watch them for hours, yes, but they eventually led to MOing and the effect of MOing to them was just like MOing to fantasies or even one picture of a girl with normal clothes on. I absolutely think that we get the excitement and neurotransmitter rush when we watch porn because we soon are going to masturbate to them.
And nofap works because you stop masturbating to porn, thus they lose their hold over you. A masturbator uses ANYTHING to orgasm, whether it be porn, fantasy, a picture of a girl's eyebrow who hates math, a bag of chips,..etc. What I mean by this is if you stop watching porn, yet still masturbate, you're not doing anything, because you're pornifying something perhaps less extreme to masturbate to. This is why for myself, porn is a general thing that I can define as: the object we masturbate to. Porn can even include sound. I read once about a guy in nofap who said he masturbated to recordings in which girls spoke or sang, I don't know which one exactly. Even an idea of a girl can be porn, by my definion of porn, if it is used as the focus in a masturbation. Without masturbation, there is no objectification and no porn. Even sex scenes will just be sex scenes and for most fapstronauts, a futile attempt to make us masturbate to the actors involved in the act, and not porn.