P.A.W.S. - what are they, cure, duration

[humbleone]

How you feeling these days @Ezpz ? Im currently nearing day 70, which is my longest streak in 12 months I think. Definately one of the hardest ones to endure too, wonder if we ever fully heal from this, so disappointing the old timers decided to quit, almost unimaginable to not want to help those going through PAWS if they went through it.

My biggest symptoms are constant head/sinus pain/pressure that is slowly improving, nightmares and lack of sleep, and still being attacked by quite extreme sex thoughts, but overall feeling better month by month

 

[OhWhenThe]

Your story sounds similar to my own! Funny thing is i found out about nofap by stumbling onto sexual exhaustion at some stage, which then lead me to nofap videos on youtube and ultimately here. I had most of these symptoms before nofap to which were gradually getting worse year by year. I quit pmo and started feeling even worse. Over the years my relapsing made things worse aswell, i think only strengthening my addiction.

I found out eventually that paws was the cause of this and that i was in some sort of flatline even before i found out. It was like a light switch turned on for me. Thankfully i found this thread and found others going what i could never figure out.

I have ruled out all other causes for my symptoms many years ago and with a lot of testing i confirmed that time is the only healer for me.

Yeah the only reason I even found nofap was because my libido literally just crashed one day, even though I was suffering from all these other symptoms I never once made the connection to porn. Even when I did find nofap and start reading up on the effects of porn use I wasn't totally on board, I'd convinced myself that I had low testosterone or some other hormonal imbalance. Actually, I tell a lie, I had heard of nofap before but I didn't really know what it was. I thought it was just some weird challenge to stop masturbating for x amount of time but at that point I imagine I probably thought to myself "why the hell would I want to do that?".

A big indicator in my opinion for paws is being able to get excited thinking about P or engaging in P, but not being able to get excited for anything else in life. Its called anhedonia and it fucking sucks, but to me this has always been the dead giveaway for paws.

Yep and when people suggest "fun" replacement activities they look more like a list of chores to me, it's a terrible place to be I know and when I do muster up the energy to engage in these activities I usually just end up feeling worse afterwards. Sometimes I see people enjoying themselves doing these things and I find myself questioning whether they're all putting on an act because none of that seems the least bit enjoyable to me. The only thing I can really tolerate and I think has helped me on this streak are long walks.

I know how it can feel having unexplained symptoms so if you are on a recovery timeline like myself then you could be in for the long haul. This shit takes a lot of patience.
Hope that helps a bit

Don't worry, I already know the drill. I've read, watched and listened to just about everything there is about this addiction, it doesn't really make it any easier though. I think it's more the uncertainty than anything but all I know is I can't go back, I might still feel pretty shitty now but nothing compares to how I feel post relapse, just getting over that takes a month or so.

It's funny though because on my first proper reboot attempt a couple of years ago I was making much quicker progress than what I'm seeing now, I guess that's the result of "kindling" in the mean time or whatever you want to call it. I'd hit markers like consistent morning wood, extremely vivid dreams and libido all returning within two months, now I'm coming up to three months and I've had maybe 3 or 4 semi MWs and the occasional somewhat memorable dream, no libido. As I said before though it's more for what they represent in terms of recovery rather than what they are themselves.

 

[Ezpz]

How you feeling these days @Ezpz ? Im currently nearing day 70, which is my longest streak in 12 months I think. Definately one of the hardest ones to endure too, wonder if we ever fully heal from this, so disappointing the old timers decided to quit, almost unimaginable to not want to help those going through PAWS if they went through it.

My biggest symptoms are constant head/sinus pain/pressure that is slowly improving, nightmares and lack of sleep, and still being attacked by quite extreme sex thoughts, but overall feeling better month by month

Congrats bro! Today is my 100th day. Its crazy im even back here again, im also on the longest streak ive had in a long time.

I am going through similar experiences. Many wet dreams, on and off morning wood, vivid dreams and nightmares. Its been so long for me i have forgotten all these symptoms that occur within the first 6 months.

I would guess that when others recover they want to make up for life they have missed. I cant blame them for leaving. I dont really feel i need anymore information at this point anyway. I know my own recovery timeline unfortunately

 

[Freeddom_Taker]

Congrats bro! Today is my 100th day. Its crazy im even back here again, im also on the longest streak ive had in a long time.

I am going through similar experiences. Many wet dreams, on and off morning wood, vivid dreams and nightmares. Its been so long for me i have forgotten all these symptoms that occur within the first 6 months.

I would guess that when others recover they want to make up for life they have missed. I cant blame them for leaving. I dont really feel i need anymore information at this point anyway. I know my own recovery timeline unfortunately

Yeah same here. I feel like I know everything about this addiction. What await for me if I relapse. I used to read other long term paws sufferers when I first discovered the term. Now I've been through it all.
I know I should have been healed by now if I didn't keep messing up my streaks.

 

[humbleone]

For the first time Im super scared to even go anywhere near relapsing, I dont know if I have the ability to endure another beginning of a streak, this one has been too hard on me, just want to be healed now more than anything

 

[Ezpz]

Yeah the only reason I even found nofap was because my libido literally just crashed one day, even though I was suffering from all these other symptoms I never once made the connection to porn. Even when I did find nofap and start reading up on the effects of porn use I wasn't totally on board, I'd convinced myself that I had low testosterone or some other hormonal imbalance. Actually, I tell a lie, I had heard of nofap before but I didn't really know what it was. I thought it was just some weird challenge to stop masturbating for x amount of time but at that point I imagine I probably thought to myself "why the hell would I want to do that?".



Yep and when people suggest "fun" replacement activities they look more like a list of chores to me, it's a terrible place to be I know and when I do muster up the energy to engage in these activities I usually just end up feeling worse afterwards. Sometimes I see people enjoying themselves doing these things and I find myself questioning whether they're all putting on an act because none of that seems the least bit enjoyable to me. The only thing I can really tolerate and I think has helped me on this streak are long walks.



Don't worry, I already know the drill. I've read, watched and listened to just about everything there is about this addiction, it doesn't really make it any easier though. I think it's more the uncertainty than anything but all I know is I can't go back, I might still feel pretty shitty now but nothing compares to how I feel post relapse, just getting over that takes a month or so.

It's funny though because on my first proper reboot attempt a couple of years ago I was making much quicker progress than what I'm seeing now, I guess that's the result of "kindling" in the mean time or whatever you want to call it. I'd hit markers like consistent morning wood, extremely vivid dreams and libido all returning within two months, now I'm coming up to three months and I've had maybe 3 or 4 semi MWs and the occasional somewhat memorable dream, no libido. As I said before though it's more for what they represent in terms of recovery rather than what they are themselves.

All i can really say is you have to be prepared for a long wait, but progress will come. If you are already 3 or 4 months in then thats a good start. There is almost no way of knowing how long each of us will take to recover. Relapsing definitely extends recovery time in my persona experience.

 

[Ezpz]

For the first time Im super scared to even go anywhere near relapsing, I dont know if I have the ability to endure another beginning of a streak, this one has been too hard on me, just want to be healed now more than anything

I feel like that after pretty much every relapse. The beginning is always so brutal

 

[Help905]

Hello everyone,

I’m trying to figure out whether I have PAWS from PMO or not. I’ve had all the PAWS symptoms such as brain fog, fatigue, anhedonia and emotional flatness, poor memory, low libido, no morning or nocturnal erections at all for past few years, and others like also having dry skin, my face does not produce oil like it used to, also dry eyes all the time, etc.

I’ve experienced these symptoms for the past 5 years or so. My PMO addiction was pretty heavy and also had a problem with edging for hours. Back in the day when I had a nofap streak, it would take only 2 or 3 days to get incredible benefits. Now even after a month streak I still feel terrible.

Another thing about me is that i began taking hair loss supplements and medications at around the same time that these symptoms began. These medications and supplements are called 5 alpha deducts as inhibitors and are known to cause something called Post Finasteride Syndrome. It is a real illness that was studied by top doctors in the field, here is a study by Baylor college of medicine. It shows that there is a problem with androgen receptors. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34247957/

I’m curious to know if anyone here has ever taken any medications or supplements related to hair loss, or if they’ve taken acne medication such as accutane or if they’ve previously taken SSRIs.

Anyways, the reason why I believe I do not have PAWS is because back in 2019 I had a hormonal test done on me called an ACTH stimulation test where they injected me with ACTH. I went home and PMOd several times. The next day I edged a bit. Then I suddenly felt completely cured. All my symptoms went away for about 8 days or so before I crashed again. The crash came after watching P and edging for a bit. My libido was so high then all of a sudden I felt something snap and all my symptoms came back suddenly.

If I had PAWS I don’t think it would be possible to heal so quickly and then also crash so quickly as well. For 8 days I was completely cured.

I do of course believe PMO is terrible and needs to be avoided but at the same time I don’t see how it could cause PAWS for 2 or 3 years which is longer than most drug addicts. Something doesn’t add up there. Also, there was a study that showed that PMO doesn’t downregulate dopamine D2 receptors.

Please excuse the long post but would appreciate it if someone could share their thoughts or experience and if they’ve ever taken those medications or supplements.

Thanks

 

[Ezpz]

Hello everyone,

I’m trying to figure out whether I have PAWS from PMO or not. I’ve had all the PAWS symptoms such as brain fog, fatigue, anhedonia and emotional flatness, poor memory, low libido, no morning or nocturnal erections at all for past few years, and others like also having dry skin, my face does not produce oil like it used to, also dry eyes all the time, etc.

I’ve experienced these symptoms for the past 5 years or so. My PMO addiction was pretty heavy and also had a problem with edging for hours. Back in the day when I had a nofap streak, it would take only 2 or 3 days to get incredible benefits. Now even after a month streak I still feel terrible.

Another thing about me is that i began taking hair loss supplements and medications at around the same time that these symptoms began. These medications and supplements are called 5 alpha deducts as inhibitors and are known to cause something called Post Finasteride Syndrome. It is a real illness that was studied by top doctors in the field, here is a study by Baylor college of medicine. It shows that there is a problem with androgen receptors. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34247957/

I’m curious to know if anyone here has ever taken any medications or supplements related to hair loss, or if they’ve taken acne medication such as accutane or if they’ve previously taken SSRIs.

Anyways, the reason why I believe I do not have PAWS is because back in 2019 I had a hormonal test done on me called an ACTH stimulation test where they injected me with ACTH. I went home and PMOd several times. The next day I edged a bit. Then I suddenly felt completely cured. All my symptoms went away for about 8 days or so before I crashed again. The crash came after watching P and edging for a bit. My libido was so high then all of a sudden I felt something snap and all my symptoms came back suddenly.

If I had PAWS I don’t think it would be possible to heal so quickly and then also crash so quickly as well. For 8 days I was completely cured.

I do of course believe PMO is terrible and needs to be avoided but at the same time I don’t see how it could cause PAWS for 2 or 3 years which is longer than most drug addicts. Something doesn’t add up there. Also, there was a study that showed that PMO doesn’t downregulate dopamine D2 receptors.

Please excuse the long post but would appreciate it if someone could share their thoughts or experience and if they’ve ever taken those medications or supplements.

Thanks

I would would say go see a doctor and ask them if you are concerned about medications.

You have to be the one to figure out if paws is the cause of your symptoms or if it something else.

Sometimes in my personal case paws can go away for a brief period after a relapse. It has always come back for me however

 

[Grateful Retainer]

Most of the flatline reports I read on reddit seemed to indicate that you just snap out of it one day and your libido is back to normal. My experience has been that I've been slowly easing my way back to normal sexual function (emphasis on "slowly").

I was flatlining before I even started semen retention and for the first 18 months or so I was completely dead beneath the belt. Now I'm in this phase where my libido slowly ramps up again and orgasm puts me right back into flatline.

The last few days I've been oscillating between flatline and libido, it's quite a strange experience. Earlier this morning I was in flatline and then something in my brain started to awaken. I was craving female flesh on a primal level and my body started responding accordingly, MUCH different then furiously jerking off to get a dopamine hit. Through thought alone I was able to achieve 100% erection. This lasted for about a half hour or so and then...that part of my brain just vanished.

Those are the areas of my brain that I had short circuited through years of abuse. It's coming back slowly but unfortunately there are still a lot of cobwebs to dust off.

 

[mentorr]

Most of the flatline reports I read on reddit seemed to indicate that you just snap out of it one day and your libido is back to normal. My experience has been that I've been slowly easing my way back to normal sexual function (emphasis on "slowly").

I was flatlining before I even started semen retention and for the first 18 months or so I was completely dead beneath the belt. Now I'm in this phase where my libido slowly ramps up again and orgasm puts me right back into flatline.

The last few days I've been oscillating between flatline and libido, it's quite a strange experience. Earlier this morning I was in flatline and then something in my brain started to awaken. I was craving female flesh on a primal level and my body started responding accordingly, MUCH different then furiously jerking off to get a dopamine hit. Through thought alone I was able to achieve 100% erection. This lasted for about a half hour or so and then...that part of my brain just vanished.

Those are the areas of my brain that I had short circuited through years of abuse. It's coming back slowly but unfortunately there are still a lot of cobwebs to dust off.

This seems to be my exact same experience at the moment. I seem to be swinging from flatline symptoms over to roaring libido that I can’t seem to control. My libido roars so high that I actually have to eat soy to quieten it and get my focus back.

Alongside the high libido days, I somewhat have my sense of humour back, I can communicate fairly well and brainfog is almost non apparent.

My only difference is that I do not get the super strong wood at this point. I definitely agree that it is an extremely gradual process. I currently journal each day to try to make some sense of recovery, but it really isn’t linear.

@Grateful Retainer how many years/months into recovery are you now?

 

[Grateful Retainer]

@mentorr I started doing semen retention in November 2019 and completed 20 months with zero sexual activity of any sort. Unfortunately I wasn't journaling (big mistake) but here is how I would break my progress into blocks:

Before starting I was already in flatline and for the first 18 months or so there was zero libido.

After 20 months I started having spontaneous orgasms. Instead of having the normal gradual sexual crescendo I would get horny, get wood, and then immediately orgasm.

I have had several sexual encounters and several sessions of mindful masturbation since then and each one puts me back into flatline. However my sexual response is normalizing, meaning if I'm horny I can get an erection to thought and not have an involuntary orgasm.

Also, the root of my sexual dysfunction is due to prone masturbation which is the crack cocaine version of jerking off. From childhood that is the only way I could masturbate and get off, jerking it the standard way did absolutely nothing for me. During my attempts at mindful masturbation I now have sensations down there if I do it standing up or on my back. THIS CAN NOT BE UNDERSTATED.

Now I cycle through periods of flatline, dull sensations, to full horniness. The refractory periods seem to be getting shorter after orgasm and my sexual response is normalizing.

Another thing I want to mention is that at this stage I can sense how this problem is ultimately in the brain. People tend to freak out after months of seemingly no progress and start to wonder if there is a physical problem, this happened to me as well. Once upon a time my brain was wired to get horny around females until years of sexual self abuse, sex addiction, and alcohol addiction completely fucked up my mind, body, and soul. As a result that part of my brain became gradually inaccessible to me over the years until I forgot where it was completely.

Here and there that part of the brain is getting back online for periods of time. As soon as it does I feel EXACTLY like I did when I was a horny teenager. Then after a period of time it simply vanishes back into the ether. When it does I could probably force myself to get an erection if I really wanted to but it isn't natural.

The only thing I can do is to continue on this journey as that part of the brain comes back online.

 

[OhWhenThe]

Most of the flatline reports I read on reddit seemed to indicate that you just snap out of it one day and your libido is back to normal.

This is how it happened for me. Well, it was more like I woke up one day and libido was at about 25%, the next day 50% and so on until after 4 or 5 days it was back to 100% or near enough. Like most I don't exactly enjoy being in a flatline but I don't miss wanting to hump everything in sight either.

 

[Freeddom_Taker]

@mentorr I started doing semen retention in November 2019 and completed 20 months with zero sexual activity of any sort. Unfortunately I wasn't journaling (big mistake) but here is how I would break my progress into blocks:

Before starting I was already in flatline and for the first 18 months or so there was zero libido.

After 20 months I started having spontaneous orgasms. Instead of having the normal gradual sexual crescendo I would get horny, get wood, and then immediately orgasm.

I have had several sexual encounters and several sessions of mindful masturbation since then and each one puts me back into flatline. However my sexual response is normalizing, meaning if I'm horny I can get an erection to thought and not have an involuntary orgasm.

Also, the root of my sexual dysfunction is due to prone masturbation which is the crack cocaine version of jerking off. From childhood that is the only way I could masturbate and get off, jerking it the standard way did absolutely nothing for me. During my attempts at mindful masturbation I now have sensations down there if I do it standing up or on my back. THIS CAN NOT BE UNDERSTATED.

Now I cycle through periods of flatline, dull sensations, to full horniness. The refractory periods seem to be getting shorter after orgasm and my sexual response is normalizing.

Another thing I want to mention is that at this stage I can sense how this problem is ultimately in the brain. People tend to freak out after months of seemingly no progress and start to wonder if there is a physical problem, this happened to me as well. Once upon a time my brain was wired to get horny around females until years of sexual self abuse, sex addiction, and alcohol addiction completely fucked up my mind, body, and soul. As a result that part of my brain became gradually inaccessible to me over the years until I forgot where it was completely.

Here and there that part of the brain is getting back online for periods of time. As soon as it does I feel EXACTLY like I did when I was a horny teenager. Then after a period of time it simply vanishes back into the ether. When it does I could probably force myself to get an erection if I really wanted to but it isn't natural.

The only thing I can do is to continue on this journey as that part of the brain comes back online.

Did you quit this forum and return???

 

[Grateful Retainer]

@Freeddom_Taker during one of my earlier periods when my libido was back I thought I was cured and didn't have anything left to contribute. Since I am slowly and gradually getting better I decided to share my experience to help others that may be discouraged. Again it seems the majority of people snap out of the flatline and that has not been the case for me.

 

[mentorr]

@mentorr I started doing semen retention in November 2019 and completed 20 months with zero sexual activity of any sort. Unfortunately I wasn't journaling (big mistake) but here is how I would break my progress into blocks:

Before starting I was already in flatline and for the first 18 months or so there was zero libido.

After 20 months I started having spontaneous orgasms. Instead of having the normal gradual sexual crescendo I would get horny, get wood, and then immediately orgasm.

I have had several sexual encounters and several sessions of mindful masturbation since then and each one puts me back into flatline. However my sexual response is normalizing, meaning if I'm horny I can get an erection to thought and not have an involuntary orgasm.

Also, the root of my sexual dysfunction is due to prone masturbation which is the crack cocaine version of jerking off. From childhood that is the only way I could masturbate and get off, jerking it the standard way did absolutely nothing for me. During my attempts at mindful masturbation I now have sensations down there if I do it standing up or on my back. THIS CAN NOT BE UNDERSTATED.

Now I cycle through periods of flatline, dull sensations, to full horniness. The refractory periods seem to be getting shorter after orgasm and my sexual response is normalizing.

Another thing I want to mention is that at this stage I can sense how this problem is ultimately in the brain. People tend to freak out after months of seemingly no progress and start to wonder if there is a physical problem, this happened to me as well. Once upon a time my brain was wired to get horny around females until years of sexual self abuse, sex addiction, and alcohol addiction completely fucked up my mind, body, and soul. As a result that part of my brain became gradually inaccessible to me over the years until I forgot where it was completely.

Here and there that part of the brain is getting back online for periods of time. As soon as it does I feel EXACTLY like I did when I was a horny teenager. Then after a period of time it simply vanishes back into the ether. When it does I could probably force myself to get an erection if I really wanted to but it isn't natural.

The only thing I can do is to continue on this journey as that part of the brain comes back online.

@Grateful Retainer I think your response here pretty much sums up my current journey after almost 33 months. 3 questions in relation to your experience:

• Is morning wood a thing for you now? Do you experience morning wood at all?
• What is your flatline refractory period at the moment after orgasm? 1 Week? 10 Days?
• Based on your recovery at the moment - any thoughts on how long you have left?

 

[Grateful Retainer]

@mentorr To answer your questions:

1) I'd estimate I have a semi erection 70% of the time, full erection 15% of the time, and nothing at all 15% of the time. It is seldom that there is no morning wood at all.

2) After orgasm in mid February it took until early April until I felt sexually charged again. If I feel fully sexually charged before June then the refractory periods are getting shorter.

3) To be honest, and this is not meant to be discouraging, I'll be really surprised now if it happens before 2023. It's happened enough times now where I thought I was completely recovered only to go back into a deep flatline that I'm realistic about a timetable.

This is the only aspect of my life that is unsatisfactory to me, meaning my health, mental state, sobriety, career, finances, relationship with God, etc. are all solid. November 2023 will not only mark four years since I began this journey but also my 45th birthday. My goal is to regain complete sexual function by then and then spend the rest of my time left in this incarnation enjoying life. This is the final hurdle to overcome.

 

[mentorr]

@mentorr To answer your questions:

1) I'd estimate I have a semi erection 70% of the time, full erection 15% of the time, and nothing at all 15% of the time. It is seldom that there is no morning wood at all.

2) After orgasm in mid February it took until early April until I felt sexually charged again. If I feel fully sexually charged before June then the refractory periods are getting shorter.

3) To be honest, and this is not meant to be discouraging, I'll be really surprised now if it happens before 2023. It's happened enough times now where I thought I was completely recovered only to go back into a deep flatline that I'm realistic about a timetable.

This is the only aspect of my life that is unsatisfactory to me, meaning my health, mental state, sobriety, career, finances, relationship with God, etc. are all solid. November 2023 will not only mark four years since I began this journey but also my 45th birthday. My goal is to regain complete sexual function by then and then spend the rest of my time left in this incarnation enjoying life. This is the final hurdle to overcome.

Damn. We really are in this for the long ride.

I think what you just said is spot on - my last orgasm was to test my refractory period and it took approx. 54 days for my libido to return and for my body to leave the flatline. Its a hell of a lot less than 7 months (or 200+ days) which was my refractory period 2.5 years ago.

It will be 3 years of recovery for me in July of this year. I honestly thought that by this Summer I would be home free - but I am starting to realise this could be a 4 year recovery potentially, even with minimal orgasms and no P or M.

A final question from me: do you feel alcohol has had any affect on your reboot - if so, in what way?

 

[mentorr]

@mentorr To answer your questions:

1) I'd estimate I have a semi erection 70% of the time, full erection 15% of the time, and nothing at all 15% of the time. It is seldom that there is no morning wood at all.

2) After orgasm in mid February it took until early April until I felt sexually charged again. If I feel fully sexually charged before June then the refractory periods are getting shorter.

3) To be honest, and this is not meant to be discouraging, I'll be really surprised now if it happens before 2023. It's happened enough times now where I thought I was completely recovered only to go back into a deep flatline that I'm realistic about a timetable.

This is the only aspect of my life that is unsatisfactory to me, meaning my health, mental state, sobriety, career, finances, relationship with God, etc. are all solid. November 2023 will not only mark four years since I began this journey but also my 45th birthday. My goal is to regain complete sexual function by then and then spend the rest of my time left in this incarnation enjoying life. This is the final hurdle to overcome.

Final question - a lot of people advise that this late into recovery we should rewiring. With the threat of a 2-month flatline, have you been following this advice? Thanks

 

[Freeddom_Taker]

Each time I mo to p, it took me at least 60 days to feel things down there. I used to think it'd take me about 2 weeks for libido to return. Nope!!
Even 2 months libido still not 50%. And I've been on nofap since 2014. There are certain times on your reboot that you cannot relapse at all or you'll make recovery longer.