P.A.W.S. - what are they, cure, duration

Discussion in 'Rebooting - Porn Addiction Recovery' started by Fenix Rising, May 12, 2019.

Tags:
  1. Ezpz

    Ezpz Fapstronaut

    Congrats on your success. It must be a hell of a thing just to get rid of most of your anxiety, especially talking to women.

    Can i ask how many months you have been PMO free? Also has there been any slips during that time?

    Progress is certainly slow and it can be difficult sometimes identifying any progress at all. It is easy to lose hope when you feel like no progress is being made. Progress, in other areas of life gives us motivation to keep going. I think we are entitled to lose hope from time to time, but not to give up. There is a big difference there.
     
    AspiringVitality likes this.
  2. Indurian

    Indurian Fapstronaut

    241
    381
    63
    Been PM free for 17 months. No slip ups fortunately. I would say that I property started trying to give up in about 2013 and had numerous relapses for a good few years. I never discovered nofap until early 2019
     
    AspiringVitality and Ezpz like this.
  3. humbleone

    humbleone Fapstronaut

    148
    293
    63
    My last relapse was basically 2 days on tinder, a lot of dirty talking and fantasising, then had a girl over didn't actually have sex just foreplay (MO), then the next 3 days 3-4x MO to fantasy (less then 1-2 minutes masturbating) out of despair and frustration, decided I don't even like MO that much and literally don't care if I ever orgasm again and then back on monk mode.

    I much prefer the chase with real girls, the dirty talk, sexting etc to porn or orgasm. I should say I was a massive sex addict as well as porn addict (300-500 sexual partners), so my battle is both virtual and real.

    I guess thats what its reduced down to now at this point in recovery, it always starts when I start to feel better, Ill start talking to girls etc which leads in one direction. Gotta stay strong until fully recovered.

    I haven't had a full 90 days monk mode in like 4-5 months, just streaks of 40-60 days then like 3-7days talking to girls, tinder, etc which causes fantasising, and then Id stop and go monk mode again, but all this talking to girls, tinder etc would make my symptoms temporarily worse

    There's not a shred of self doubt or hatred, I have done the best I could do, and continue to do so, whatever will be will be, still confident I will heal, but just not sure when. Im back on the horse now, and will track recovery progress over next 3-6 months.
     
    AspiringVitality, Ezpz and Dave G 123 like this.
  4. Mr. Kruger

    Mr. Kruger Fapstronaut

    126
    143
    43
    The elites love caffeine because it's a drug that keeps the wageslaves productive, but is very unlikely to kill you.
     
  5. Ezpz

    Ezpz Fapstronaut

    I think that in your case tinder may be doing more harm than good, especially since this addiction is potentially linked with sex addiction.

    The one thing i find strange is that even people who have sexual experience seem to still get these symptoms. If anything regular sex alongside a P addiction may have made things worse. It seems so in my case that's why i decided to go full monk mode.
     
    AspiringVitality likes this.
  6. StarRider

    StarRider Fapstronaut

    596
    585
    93
    It IS a sex addiction and never was anything else. People masturbated (too much) and got addicted.

    For a sex addict it doesn't matter how he has sex, while the "sex-positive" proponents of "porn addiction" try to establish exactly that, creating a scapegoat (screen content) in the process together with unscientific theories about "rebooting", "rewiring" and other quack.

    Nobody wants to tell sex addicts, that the sexual lifestyle idolized in the West is off limits for the rest of their lives. Just as alcoholics they face a future of total sobriety if they want to stay recovered, because they made the mistake of masturbating too much.
     
  7. TheRetainer

    TheRetainer Fapstronaut

    252
    147
    43
    Each of us seem sensitive to different things and react differently to various paths to perhaps a humans ultimate reward which ultimately is orgasm.

    How we have come to acheive orgasm and be addicted to it seems to vary. Most people on here watch porn to start the process of being aroused, to masturbate and then acheieve the ultimate evolutionary goal of orgasm. These people feel symptoms just thinking of porn, or just looking at it for a few moments.

    There are addicts who associate engaging in face to face contact with women to the dopamine fueled path to orgasm.
    Some just need to swipe on tinder to get that dopamine feeling which drives us to orgasm.
    There are strange people in the world that get the same feelings when looking at children, even some which are aroused by inanimate objects.
    Some look at men and get on the sex pathway, some women.

    Personally, I feel Ive been addicted to orgasm my whole life. Without ever really having a libido. I have no arousal pathway. I Can look at porn, feel nothing, have a hot girl all over me and feel nothing. My whole childhood I simply mechanically masturbated myself to orgasm often completely flaccid. I did it just to achieve that final reward - orgasm. ORgasm feels better than any drug or experience to me. It feels like a itch in my crotch that is pleasent to scratch but doesnt really involve other people, attraction, porn, etc. IT is just how I have been programmed to achieve that reward.

    In my opinion (as it currently stands) it is acheiving the ultimate reward of orgasm to often that damages us. We all have different reward pathways, and it seems porn and its never ending novelty is the most common and damaging. From a human perspective it makes sense that we are driven to orgasm, it makes sense that we are driven to orgasm with as many different partners as possible to populate the world. Any of us that have been in long term relationships will know that sex gets boring with the same person, we are attracted to someone new, and that is part of our biological drive. It is why porn is so arousing to most. Novelty, endless new partners. This pushes most to keep on getting the dopamine that leads us to orgasm, over and over.

    Porn is the ultimate dopamine fuel, but I beleive its more the orgasming to often which is causing the damage.

    I trained myself to enjoy orgasm with basic fantasy just to get hard then mechanically stimulate myself to orgasm. Often with no fantasy. I dont get horny just this weight in the crotch, that leads me to masturbating to release. But with my mildly obbsessive personality I kept on orgasming over and over damaging myself with no porn. Orgasm through sex, masturbation with or without porn makes me feel the exact the same.
     
    clapas and Freeddom_Taker like this.
  8. TheRetainer

    TheRetainer Fapstronaut

    252
    147
    43
    The one thing that is notably improved on now day 115 is my voice. Before nofap, it would go deeper after regular orgasms, then go back to being nasally and weak. In the last few weeks ive noticed it is deeper more often. It seems to go back to nasally sometimes usually after exercise or maybe eating alot. It is nice to be able to see something that is a definite improvement.

    I would say im in a similar place now with ZERO orgasm and little sexual stimulation to what I was before NoFap with regular sex and masturation a few times a week. Thats good I guess that I have a bareable level of well being without having to orgasm. When I was doing regular MO, I was up and down alot much like I am now, probably with lower lows, but also higher highs. From the start of Nofap everything crashed, with only very small windows of relative greatness. Since passing day 100 I think my baseline dopamine or whatever it is, is averaging similar to when I started. But without having to rely on MO (my drug) to get by.
     
    StarRider and AspiringVitality like this.
  9. Ezpz

    Ezpz Fapstronaut

    I agree with most of your post, especially the part about novelty.

    I have to disagree with this statement though. For the vast majority of us on here P is our problem and not masturbation or orgasm. There are some struggling with just masturbation addiction, sure but just remember that nofap and related sites are P addiction recovery sights and have no problems with masturbation or orgasm. There is a good reason why sites like yourbrainonporn.com offer so much research into P addiction, rather than focusing on the M or O.

    You can overtax your body by to many orgasms, for sure. The physical recovery from that is much quicker than you would think. Just a few weeks and the body can return to normal. What takes longer is your brains ability to balance itself out back to what it once was, hence why we see these long reboots.

    These days an orgasm has little affect on me. Maybe ill be tired a little for the next day but i am no longer being sent into a dreadful flatline after a wet dream. I know it would be different if i were to persue P again, even without M or O i would guess. Im not going to find out.
     
    AspiringVitality likes this.
  10. StarRider

    StarRider Fapstronaut

    596
    585
    93
    There I have to disagree. Most people on this site have a sex (masturbation) addiction and are in complete denial of it, looking for a scapegoat to blame it on.

    The problem with that page is that it offers lots of pseudo-science and bunk methods like "reboot" and "rewire" that don't work at all. It's aimed to save the "sexual revolution", which celebrates masturbation and self-pleasure as the holy grail.
     
  11. A lot of people on this site refuse or in denial that they have an issue with masturbation and orgasm instead of porn only. If p is the bigger problem, why people who work inside a pornshop or a people who distribute porn catalog never have or report any problem relating to dopamine.

    I could watch p I I want to... However the moment fluid start coming out, brain fog intensifies and back pain start getting worse.
     
    mr.incognito and StarRider like this.
  12. StarRider

    StarRider Fapstronaut

    596
    585
    93
    Especially where are all the people compulsively watching pornography, but never masturbating to it? Because only these would count as real "porn addicts".
     
  13. zander13

    zander13 Fapstronaut

    22
    39
    13
    Porn is the issue for most. The chemicals come from the novelty that porn provides. Dopamine is a seeking chemical, not a satiation one, meaning that we're hooked on finding that "perfect video", or, as our brains perceive it, that perfect mate. If we weren't wired to seek girls out, then we would be biological failures, because we'd have sex with one girl, feel satisfied, and be done with it. That's like a tree only dropping one acorn--it's not going to survive as a species. We, as humans, are hardwired to shoot off acorns all over the place, because that gives us a better chance at successful reproduction. Dopamine is the crux of the matter, and dopamine is all about that search. Gary Wilson talks about this at length at yourbrainonporn.com. Reading that site is a must in my book.

    Edging is a more detrimental action than having an orgasm when it comes to this addiction because we are keeping our dopamine levels high as hell for extended periods of time. It's like a three hundred foot line of coke that we snort without breaks in between--just one long inhale. It's about having 20 tabs open at once, and cycling through video after video after video. Our brains are cooked, or at least mine is. I'm over 9 months and still feel like absolute shit for most of the day, every day. And it's because of the porn.

    For those who believe otherwise, then God bless. But I don't think it's fair to make your claims and act as if science is an ugly girl at the party that we can ignore. Our boys in the white house have already got that shtick covered.
     
    clapas and AspiringVitality like this.
  14. StarRider

    StarRider Fapstronaut

    596
    585
    93
    You don't have to repeat the age-old TED talks. They turned out being bollocks.

    Gary Wilson is wrong on all accounts. His "reboot" and "rewire" methods advertised on his site simply do not work. When evidence started to show up proving his pseudo-science wrong, he even started to claim that people get permanent brain damage by porn - so that's why they obviously can't recover, not because of him simply being wrong.

    All that while medicals professionals successfully treated compulsive masturbation (the actual addiction) with tried and tested OCD therapies.
     
  15. Ezpz

    Ezpz Fapstronaut


    please look for your arguments elseware.
     
    taikuri and AspiringVitality like this.
  16. StarRider

    StarRider Fapstronaut

    596
    585
    93
    The lowered voice is something I like the most. I think that has nothing to do with dopamine, but with different levels of sexual hormones.

    That's what recovery is about.

    Especially where are all the people compulsively watching pornography, but never masturbating to it? Because only these would count as real "porn addicts".

    Well, my usage of visual stimulus is still above the once to twice a week MO or PMO cycle I was previously in (before it escalated again with Corona), as I use every occurrence of P now to train for staying clean of MO. Even random involuntary exposure helps with that (I stay calm and composed, instead of a rush firing up a relapse cycle).

    Yet I'm still experiencing all positive recovery benefits and negative ones like dopamine withdrawal at the same time, debunking all theories about "porn addiction". However for six years I fell for those theories, because I matched them pretty well including strong urges to watch P, while "rebooting" or "rewiring" made everything worse. Quack doctor Gary Wilson would have diagnosed "permanent brain damage caused by porn", because I hadn't recovered according to his theories.

    Then I dropped all those BS beliefs about masturbation and a very quick recovery started. I quickly stopped believing in "porn addiction", which made these unnatural strong urges to watch it go away immediately. My personal conclusion is that someone brainwashed people addicted to sex (masturbation) into believing in "porn addiction" through his book so he can "cure" them from something which doesn't actually exist. This is why many countries actually ban people from providing medical advice on topics they have no professional credentials for.
     
    Last edited: Jul 28, 2020
    mr.incognito likes this.
  17. Dave G 123

    Dave G 123 Fapstronaut

    To throw in my 2 cents, from my own experience in the last few years, I do think you can have a serious problem with MO even if you are porn free. I knew I had a porn problem for a long time that actually affected my health to some degree (12 years ago), but was in denial about the fact that I also had a MO problem until about 3 years ago, and even then it took a while to accept. Apart from anything, I could edge for a fair amount of time without porn (and had been since I was a kid), and this (IMHO) is what really fries the synapses. Porn just makes that easier to do, and internet porn even more so, for far longer periods of time, which makes the problem more obvious. Maybe for some people just quitting porn is enough for them to see the improvements they need. I now know, for me at least, this isn't enough, and I need to go hardmode.

    Part of what helped me understand this was reading "Cupids Poison Arrow" by Marnia Robinson (aka Mrs Gary Wilson!). This really highlighted the negative effects that orgasm alone can have, even in moderation, in women as well as men.

    I wouldn't go so far as to describe Gary Wilson's work as "pseudo-science" or "bunk". I just think that in Gary's case, he is focused on porn because that's what people were flagging up to him as being a problem 10 year ago. I'm pretty sure, given what Marnia writes in her book, that he is aware of the potential for non-porn MO to mess people up. And on YBOP he seems to be working very hard on using peer-reviewed journal articles to back up his ideas (for example, specifically on withdrawal: https://www.yourbrainonporn.com/rel...-reporting-withdrawal-symptoms-in-porn-users/ ). This work does focus on porn rather than MO, but give it time - I think the scientific consensus about the potential harm of compulsive orgasm / edging will change in the decades to come, if the right people start asking the right questions. At the moment what seems to be preventing that is that there is too much taboo and shame (oh the irony!) about questioning a pro-sex or P/MO position, so the science hasn't been done yet.
     
    clapas and Freeddom_Taker like this.
  18. Dave G 123

    Dave G 123 Fapstronaut

    This is very confusing...
     
  19. StarRider

    StarRider Fapstronaut

    596
    585
    93
    The "scientific consensus" about masturbation changed during the 1960s when masturbation was made the holy grail of "sexual revolution". In another thread someone found a book from 1842 (yes, 19th century!) describing the negative effects of masturbation in detail. There is no actual new knowledge in "NoFap". In the end "scientific consensus" is just a term masking zeitgeist and politics.

    It's only confusing when you don't experience it yourself and don't see the agenda behind it. What is happening now is the "sex-positive" agenda crashing down completely with many people having no sex at all anymore (especially to be seen in Japan), so the "porn addiction" theme was brought up as desperate try to save the "progress" made during the previous decades. Especially since the 1990s "sex addiction" has been removed from diagnostic manuals to prevent professional treatment - and get more people addicted to sex (masturbation) as a result.

    So after figuring that out I just decided to drop the BS of the latter half of the 20th century altogether (something Mr. Wilson clearly does not want) to finally get my recovery going after being deceived for years by them.
     
    mr.incognito likes this.
  20. AspiringVitality

    AspiringVitality Fapstronaut

    357
    414
    63
    I am def not addicted to sex :emoji_joy:
    Thats for sure

    It is a very personal thing, some people have more problem with the dopamine/edging/porn. Others have more problems with orgasms/MO/testosterone. The mix between these differs per person.

    I can masturbate and edge to kinky stuff for many hours nonstop. I don't want the orgasm, I want to delay it as long as possible while keeping myself just before that point of no return.

    Other people orgasm 3-10x per day because thats their addiction.

    C'mon guys we all know this already.

    Acknowledge each others experience. What do you try to accomplish by saying "this or that is bollocks"..? We don't have to endlessly repeat our own views. One time is enough. This thread is about PAWS
     
    Dave G 123 and Indurian like this.

Share This Page