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Discussion in 'Off-topic Discussion' started by Limeaid, May 17, 2015.
To be attracted to an attractive woman is natural.
What causes the problems are when we start lusting over women whom are in a relationship with another, or whom we have no desire to be with except for sex.
This lust leads to greed and covetousness, if you don't think lust is such a bad thing that's your value, but just make sure you have the balls to pursue what you lust after, or why lust at all, you just lower yourself to the level of a pervert.
Lust is at the heart of objectification, along with selfishness, depersonalization of others, and ignorance,
if any of that makes sense.
Even worse still is that in order to object another you must at the same time objectify yourself.
@Limeaid we live in a society that promotes the objectification of women through mass media. Men are visual creatures and not innocent little prepubescent boys who only see motherly characteristics in a skimpily clad hot bodied woman. Women are brainwashed to think that their only value comes from being a sexually desired object. The view is especially reflected in the clothing styles of the past 100 years. The trend that caught on from Victorian ages was of hourglass curvy figures and pumped out bosoms. Then fashion was merged for men and women with clothes of both genders being basically the same and the only girly differentiator became wearing increasingly revealing clothes to look pretty. With this, women were liberated and started questioning why they are objectified. Now I'm not castrated and when I see tank tops with bra straps and tight yoga pants, my survival procreation instinct cannot contemplate a beautiful soul behind that piece of impregnatable meat.
To survive without thoughts of sinning and to avoid gaming women by pretending to be indifferent to their body and faking interest in their minds, I go about my day keeping my eyes lowered so I can't see. This way, I do not objectify women who want to be. I just stop caring. I hope this answers your question somewhat.
When I see some women attracting the eyes of men from all directions it is apparent that they are aware of the effect. See the same women every week or few days replicating that same situation. Don't really think that the men or the women are in the wrong. Apologies for not bringing any intellect to the discussion. Only observations.
This is the intellectual reasoning against objectifying. It means don't fantasise women when they might not want it or they might be in a relationship with someone else. If you are interested in them ask them out otherwise why not make an effort to see them as human beings.
From a spiritual level if ones mind can be open and not riddled with desire then you start to listen hear and appreciate others unconditionally.
By dealing with the desire we can destabilise the whole porn industry without laying a finger on them. May NoFap grow and grow.
Yes surely make the effort to lust after what is on the inside of the person if you lust the physical appearance of someone, or else you lower yourself to level of the beast through purely physical lust. And I would hope everyone sees the uniqueness and value of every individual regardless of attraction.
[PS to my previous post]
Let's say I get my reptilian brain to avoid the sexy body on display and manage to focus on the face. Most of the time, it's difficult to find the person behind the glittering red lipstick and bedroom eye shadow effects amplified with each blink of heavily mascara-clad eyelashes. Not to mention the fake high cheekbones optical illusion and baby noses. And then there's the artificially colored, streaked and straightened or curled hair dispersing all those pheromones in the air that mix with intoxicating perfume that makes me drowsy and soothes me into another plane. I am totally focused on the insides of the human being by now or maybe I'm just pretending to be to get on the inside.
Men objectify women because women objectify themselves with the way they dress. I don't lust after women who are dressed modestly. If women don't want to be objectified, they should wear loose-fitting clothing that covers their cleavage, legs, etc.
That's the most politically incorrect statement you can say in our age.
I think for the exact same reason we PMO. I think the last paragraph in the article is best:
"When I objectify women, it’s because I feel disconnected, less present, less in my heart, and less in my body. The remedy is simple now. Get back in my body and heart. Connect to me, all of me. This requires I meditate, connect to someone I love and slow down. It requires I feel what is going on deep down inside of me. Appreciation. Once I get connected to me again, I notice how I can appreciate a beautiful woman and I’m in my body, connected to my heart. It has a totally different quality. She feels it and I feel it. "
@firdi I will apologize in advance if I misunderstood your post! finding a woman sexually appealing is not the same as objectifying. If I find a mans bulging bicep appealing and he is wearing a tank top while shovelling dirt then yes it is distracting. Objectification comes in when this is all we notice about the person or we start fantasizing about fucking them in various positions without even knowing them. I will feel the rush of sexual attraction and then turn my mind to something else when it becomes conscious. Sexual attraction is not a conscious act. Objectification is. Sexual attraction is normal and natural. As for the woman you are describing in your last post then at least you know it is an illusion. Many guys find women who wear little to no makeup more appealing and then their are those guys that just want "hot" girls, no matter how they get that way.
I attract the gaze of men quite often and I am definitely not dressed provocatively. I have read of muslim men masturbating thinking about women's eyes. I am not saying that all women are victims here but I do know that not all women who get male attention want it. I also don't think it's good to say that women are responsible for your objectification. Objectification is a choice.
This is not a trivial issue and one that in some places gets argued to death (literally). Some ground rules, no disrespect. I admit I'm clueless on much of this and honestly only hope to learn and not impose. Having said that, I'll try to abstain from pointless rhetoric. This is something we can probably not agree upon so I'll just try to understand the other side and leave it at that.
@Limeaid I completely agree about objectification being a conscious choice and different from attraction. And I agree that eyes could be enough for few men to rape or even a goat. What I get from your post is separation of attraction and objectification. A poet's eyes see differently than a rapist's. There are two caveats to attraction of poets. One may feel attracted to the physical beauty and another, the soul. While the rapist has serious issues with objectification. Which of these are we discussing here?
@significantother I'm deeply sorry for what you and your boyfriend had to endure on the street. I'd like to believe that women who cover up would face less harassment but that's not consistent with your experiences. This is actually rather interesting. I'd like you to consider the below video and let me know what you think.
The issue here is not how you could dress to stop men looking at you in a certain way.
The issue is that you care so much, think it is soo important how someone else looks and thinks about you. Get over yourselves.
It is everyone's own right to look and think about people however they want. Men might as well start complaining about disrespectful looks from women. Which in my opinion would actually make more sense than complaining about someone liking you too much.
This discussion is as much about "rights" as it is about people complaining about someone liking them too much. Who cares if you have the right to leer at a woman across the street. Each of us has the right to do what we want within reason and legality, but that doesn't mean it should be considered alright to behave disrespectfully. The issue is that women are being downgraded to sex objects for wearing certain clothing, or simply being women, even when with significant others or family. I would suggest you be more considerate to others, as you have just complained about them complaining.
That was an extreme example you had there. The guy was taking quite the risk of getting punched and, if for no other reason, that is why that is not going to happen very often.
Yea, that is not enough, people either are fine with just talking to you or think they still have chances. Tell them you don't want to talk to them if you don't want to. If they ignore that you have a reason to complain. Although it still wouldn't be that big of an issue.
@significantother thank you for your perspective on this. I didn't mean to focus on the religious aspect of the video either. Your wishing to be invisible shows very deep emotional responses about the problem of objectification that, I being man, cannot experience.
Here's what would happen if you covered your hair. The first video contrasts walking on the street wearing normal clothes with being extra covered. The second one is the critical perspective about the first video.
I can somewhat understand you getting scared. It is in the genes. But believe me, not all men are rapists. There is no good reason for you to be scared in that situation.
You can just walk around him.
Saying "I have a boyfriend." is very far from being very clear. Just because you use that line to mean "Get the fuck away from me creep!" doesn't mean everyone else has that understanding.
Interesting comparison @firdi.
Objectifying people is wrong. Period.