You relapse only because of this

[ZenAF]

There's just one single reason why people relapse. It's not because of triggers. It's not because of drugs, depression, anxiety, or your mean girlfriend who just left you.

It's because you wanted to. That's right, if you relapse it's because you like it. You may make yourself believe that you couldn't help yourself in that moment, but that's a lie, and you know it.

Doesn't seem like a newsflash to you? Well that's because you believe that the right way to go about your addiction is to "fight your urges". Fight your inner lust, fight the demon, fight fight fight with clenched teeth and hope that the monster inside doesn't overwhelm you.

No wonder you lose.

Your lust used to be on your side. Meaning your lust and you shared the same worldview, had the same vision of what a good life looks like. Your lust acts very much like another person inside you, with it's own opinions and strategies. If you make it your enemy you'll never win.

When you relapse it's because your lust wants to and convinces the decision making part of you. The you you so to speak. That only happens because the conscientious part of you, the you who wants to quit porn and have a brighter future, never did the hard work of convincing your lust. Or maybe you tried but failed at it.

To avoid relapse you need to make the decision to quit and stick with it.
To stick with your decision and not doubt yourself every other day means you need to be of one mind.
To be of one mind means that all parts inside you share the same vision for the future.

When you relapse it means your lust still believes in a life with porn. It still thinks it's possible. But your conscientious you doesn't believe that. So you have mental battles with yourself.. every day.
But all that's changed for your lust is that the old game of "lets PMO whenever I want" went to "lets pretend I'm quitting, but every once in a while I'm going to get to win and PMO".
You may not see it that way, but your lust does. As long as that's the case, you're going to keep relapsing.


Change how your lust thinks about porn and you'll win. Make it see clearly how crappy porn is, make it understand it's been eating junk food all day long while there are fine dining restaurants all around. Bring your lust back on your side, let it share your vision of a good life free of porn.

Once you manage that you don't need to worry about relapsing again. No need to worry about triggers either. Once you are sure of what you want nothing can force your hand!


So stop wasting time trying to get rid of triggers and trying to make things as easy as possible externally. Instead focus on the part inside of you that doesn't want to let go. Understand it, convince it, become one and I promise you, the world will fall off your shoulders.

Whenever in doubt, remember this: If you're battling a war inside your mind you're doing it wrong. If it feels easy, you're on the right path.

 

[CTRL + DEL]

It amazes me that someone can manage to fit so much senseless crap all in a single post.

It's because you wanted to. That's right, if you relapse it's because you like it. You may make yourself believe that you couldn't help yourself in that moment, but that's a lie, and you know it.

Have you maybe considered that maybe this only applies to you?

What is the basis behind this generalization? What is it that enables you to say that this applies to the entire community?

No wonder you lose.

Forum rules dictate that we cannot cite streaks as indicators of success but when you make a direct assertion like this, it's only natural someone is gonna look at your streak to see if there is actual meaning to this form of attitude. 29 days without P alone doesn't strike me as criteria enough to say this. I have a 37 day PMO streak and I have yet to show my face in the success stories section. You are overestimating your ability.

To avoid relapse you need to make the decision to quit and stick with it.
To stick with your decision and not doubt yourself every other day means you need to be of one mind.
To be of one mind means that all parts inside you share the same vision for the future.

You can get as abstract in your statements as you like but welcome to the real world ^^

There's something called DeltaFosB here and no amount of "one mind" thinking is going to decrease its half life. It will stay etched between the crevices of your brain until time and lack of stimulation contribute to its disintegration.

So stop wasting time trying to get rid of triggers and trying to make things as easy as possible externally. Instead focus on the part inside of you that doesn't want to let go. Understand it, convince it, become one and I promise you, the world will fall off your shoulders.

Unless someone lives in a forest, this is mostly impractical to achieve in the real world. Some degree of control can be attained, yes- but for a complete metamorphosis of sorts to happen quickly enough within the space of 2 urges is impossible.


Besting an addiction is a step by step process. Falling is a very natural part of the process because it strengthens resolve and makes us wiser (if we choose to view it that way, obviously).

Whenever in doubt, remember this: If you're battling a war inside your mind you're doing it wrong. If it feels easy, you're on the right path.

Only the last line here makes sense and that too, if interpreted properly.

I understand that this approach is working for you and i commend your steak; I really do.
But you're stepping out of line in thinking this validates undermining and misinterpreting the journeys others here take.

Every man has his path; the same way every man has his own addiction / fetish / history / sexuality. There are too many factors involved for you to make a generalization like this, I'm afraid.

There are people here who give recovery their absolute all and still can't cross 2-4 days. And that is fine. If not today; they will conquer this tomorrow and they will do it by themselves.

You may make yourself believe that you couldn't help yourself in that moment, but that's a lie, and you know it.

This ^ has some truth to it though. Lots of people do not realise their potential.

 

[ZenAF]

It amazes me that someone can manage to fit so much senseless crap all in a single post.

Nice intro to a criticism. Did I hit a nerve?

Have you maybe considered that maybe this only applies to you?
What is the basis behind this generalization? What is it that enables you to say that this applies to the entire community?

I'm a human just like you. We may differ in experience, but not in mechanics. Just like depression has the same remedies for everybody, quitting an addiction has too.
We are by a very very large amount more alike than we differ, physiologically and psychologically. If we weren't how could you give any advice to anybody?

Forum rules dictate that we cannot cite streaks as indicators of success but when you make a direct assertion like this, it's only natural someone is gonna look at your streak to see if there is actual meaning to this form of attitude. 29 days without P alone doesn't strike me as criteria enough to say this. I have a 37 day PMO streak and I have yet to show my face in the success stories section. You are overestimating your ability.

This quote right here tells me that you're projecting. Nowhere in my post do I make reference to my streak. That's on you. Also the "No wonder you lose." was related to my previous statement that people tend to make it a battle. Battle, losing, winning, get it?

You can get as abstract in your statements as you like but welcome to the real world ^^

What makes you think I'm that abstract. I'm not making many analogies, the fact that internal drives like lust, anger, conscientiousness act like separate systems is a well established fact in the psychological and neurological community.

There's something called DeltaFosB here and no amount of "one mind" thinking is going to decrease its half life. It will stay etched between the crevices of your brain until time and lack of stimulation contribute to its disintegration.

So what's your point? DeltaFosB will cause your relapse?
Look, either you believe that you have free will or you blind yourself with biological facts and make yourself believe that you don't have that much of a choice in life after all.

Unless someone lives in a forest, this is mostly impractical to achieve in the real world. Some degree of control can be attained, yes- but for a complete metamorphosis of sorts to happen quickly enough within the space of 2 urges is impossible.

You really don't seem to understand what I was writing about. "Some degree of control can be attained"?
Again this, combined with your DeltaFosB excuse just tells me you don't want to face the responsibility that you have control over your actions. I get it, it's easier to see it that way.

Besting an addiction is a step by step process. Falling is a very natural part of the process because it strengthens resolve and makes us wiser (if we choose to view it that way, obviously).

Sure, I agree. But there's a reason why we fall. Unless you believe it's necessary to relapse (which I hope you don't) there is a way to avoid it technically from the very first streak on.

Only the last line here makes sense and that too, if interpreted properly.

The whole post is an explanation on that last line. Maybe you didn't interpret the post properly either? (In some cases I know you didn't.)

I understand that this approach is working for you and i commend your steak; I really do.
But you're stepping out of line in thinking this validates undermining and misinterpreting the journeys others here take.

Again, stop looking at my streak as a source for legitimacy. I don't care if you have 600 days with no PMO you might still be prone to relapses because you never took the time to properly understand yourself.
Also how am I undermining the journeys of others? Because I said stop wasting time avoiding triggers? I do think it's the wrong focus.


If you're actually serious about helping people here, you want to get to the bottom of things. I don't think I'm better than anybody else here, despite of what you might have deducted from reading my post. I see us all climbing a huge mountain. And from where I stand I found a way up that is much more efficient than the path lots of others are taking. So I'm sharing it. If that really offends you so much, just ignore it.
But maybe, just maybe I'm on to something and might help some people.

But you're right I won't help those who think they're so special that no one understands them and who need their own way of dealing with things. Fine by me, whatever floats your boat.

To me it comes down to this:
Either you believe in free will or you don't. If you don't, you're lying to yourself to avoid responsibility. If you do, there's no reason to even pull up the concept of DeltaFosB while you're quitting porn. Let your brain do what it does. Your job is to make the right choices.

 

[CTRL + DEL]

Did I hit a nerve?

No. It just is a complete load of absurdity imo lol

Just like depression has the same remedies for everybody, quitting an addiction has too.
We are by a very very large amount more alike than we differ, physiologically and psychologically. If we weren't how could you give any advice to anybody?

Physiologically? Yes.
Psychologically? Not by a mile.

This "advice" you refer to applies on experience and Stimulus-reaction based learning. It is the transfer of experience and empathy, not a mindset.

Teachings become eroded at each successive generation. Advice is open to vastyl differing interpretations.

People study 4+ years to get a degree in psychology so they can do this with minimal risk of danger.

So what's your point? DeltaFosB will cause your relapse?

Did you read what I typed there? DeltaFosB maintains the association between action and reward. It is the very chemistry behind addiction; mindsets are secondary. Just because you understand how your fingers work doesn't mean you'll be bending them backwards after that.

Again this, combined with your DeltaFosB excuse just tells me you don't want to face the responsibility that you have control over your actions. I get it, it's easier to see it that way.

... why are you getting personal? I'm well on my way to recovery. You can observe my counter and tell I don't need / use excuses at this point (or ever for that matter).
People are the product of their actions and they reap what they sow. But it is absurdity to expect a behavioral response to overrule a fundamentally biological response. It takes repetition for that to occur. Relapses are what you find between these repeated attempts.

Maybe you didn't interpret the post properly either? (In some cases I know you didn't.)

You keep assuming. I'm giving you quite simple facts here bro.

Unless you believe it's necessary to relapse (which I hope you don't) there is a way to avoid it technically from the very first streak on.

It is necessary to relapse. Can you provide me with just 3 real world applications / success stories where this "technically" correct approach has worked? I can give you more than 100 examples of the opposite.

I don't care if you have 600 days with no PMO you might still be prone to relapses because you never took the time to properly understand yourself.

Lol what a gross generalisation. Just because someone's techniques don't match up with yours don't make them improper.

Because I said stop wasting time avoiding triggers? I do think it's the wrong focus.

Avoiding triggers is step 1. You do that, build inner focus (like you suggest; nothing wrong with your methodology in itself I might add) and then adapt to the unavoidable vices of the world. A learning curve is essential.

I found a way up that is much more efficient than the path lots of others are taking. So I'm sharing it. If that really offends you so much, just ignore it.

It's not offensive in the least. You have a right to share your views just as much as I do. I'm simply pointing out the fact that your approach is far too ideal to work with a degree of reliability in this world.

Either you believe in free will or you don't. If you don't, you're lying to yourself to avoid responsibility. If you do, there's no reason to even pull up the concept of DeltaFosB while you're quitting porn. Let your brain do what it does. Your job is to make the right choices.

We completely agree here lol
That's literally what I've been saying; DeltaFosB is not an excuse; it is a means that must be understood and beat at its own game.

Out of curiousity: have you used this technique and never failed?

 

[ZenAF]

I'ma focus on the essential here, don't have the time to get into every bit of disagreement:

Did you read what I typed there? DeltaFosB maintains the association between action and reward. It is the very chemistry behind addiction; mindsets are secondary. Just because you understand how your fingers work doesn't mean you'll be bending them backwards after that.

Thinking you can bend your fingers backwards implies that you don't understand how they work...
Again, what point are you trying to make with DeltaFosB? We're talking about relapsing here. Either you try to make a case that sometimes you can't help yourself to relapse because of DeltaFosB or not. If you do, that means you do use it as an excuse and you ignore your free will for convenience sake.
It's true a relapse feels even worse if you're aware that you actually had 100% control over yourself.

... why are you getting personal? I'm well on my way to recovery. You can observe my counter and tell I don't need / use excuses at this point (or ever for that matter).
People are the product of their actions and they reap what they sow. But it is absurdity to expect a behavioral response to overrule a fundamentally biological response. It takes repetition for that to occur. Relapses are what you find between these repeated attempts.

I didn't judge any of your accomplishments. I'm deducing how you think based on what you wrote. I infer a motive behind the things you write and don't assume you write them out of random.
If you write about DeltaFosB for example I'm deducing what I wrote before, that you use it as an excuse. I have to deduce since you don't actually spell out the implications of mentioning that chemical and reveal your motives yourself.

It is necessary to relapse. Can you provide me with just 3 real world applications / success stories where this "technically" correct approach has worked? I can give you more than 100 examples of the opposite.

I wrote technically for a reason, because of course I don't have an example of someone who's never relapsed. The point however is that we fail because we do it wrongly! Otherwise how many relapses do you need to change? I've had 4 serious relapses in the last 2 years, I've been an addict for over 14 years! Is that enough or do I have to relapse some more? Or do I get to stop now? Should I ask my brain chemistry or should I take responsibility for my choices?

It's not offensive in the least. You have a right to share your views just as much as I do. I'm simply pointing out the fact that your approach is far too ideal to work with a degree of reliability in this world.
Out of curiousity: have you used this technique and never failed?

All I can tell you is that it genuinely works for me. I've been trying to quit for two years, my longest streak used to be 17 days and every day was a struggle.
Now I don't struggle anymore. It's easy. And no I haven't failed since I've been using this approach. Haven't even come close. It's not that I don't feel any impulses to PMO anymore, I do, but I'm not scared that I will act on them because I know, with my whole being, that that shit is a thing of the past.
I'm not coming here to brag, point fingers or feel good about myself, what for?
Mindset is everything man. Believe it or not. I'm not saying you can't do it any other way, but some ways are harder than others, that's why I've used the mountain analogy.

It's useful to conceptualize addictions in psychological terms, in my eyes even more so than biological. I didn't study psychology for 4+ years, however I did watch 70+ hours of psychology university lectures on YT, took classes in gymnasium and read C. Jung and E. Neumann. So no, I'm not a professional, never claimed to be, but I'm also not just winging it.

We completely agree here lol
That's literally what I've been saying; DeltaFosB is not an excuse; it is a means that must be understood and beat at its own game.

Meaning what exactly? Your point is repetition is the key, right? Well that's a very vague goal. Because you can't know how many repetitions you need exactly.

When you've convinced yourself to go to the gym you also still need weeks, months and years to get really strong and fit, because you muscles take time to grow. That's the repetition you talk about.
But if you have to convince yourself every time to go to the gym, because part of you still thinks it's unnecessary, it's a huge drag and you're likely to skip gym many times. But if you want it, going to the gym can even become fun.

 

[CTRL + DEL]

Alright bro.

Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree ^^

I'll add that I respect your choice to be civilised in this discussion. I think I learnt quite a few things here.

Thanks for the new insight. Truly!

 

[ZenAF]

I'm cool with that and I'm glad you criticized me. It's not about winning an argument anyway, it's about balancing each other out. Next time I'll try to be more humble in my wording.

38 days dude, keep it up!

 

[Westsidejimmy]

There's just one single reason why people relapse. It's not because of triggers. It's not because of drugs, depression, anxiety, or your mean girlfriend who just left you.

It's because you wanted to. That's right, if you relapse it's because you like it. You may make yourself believe that you couldn't help yourself in that moment, but that's a lie, and you know it.

Doesn't seem like a newsflash to you? Well that's because you believe that the right way to go about your addiction is to "fight your urges". Fight your inner lust, fight the demon, fight fight fight with clenched teeth and hope that the monster inside doesn't overwhelm you.

No wonder you lose.

Your lust used to be on your side. Meaning your lust and you shared the same worldview, had the same vision of what a good life looks like. Your lust acts very much like another person inside you, with it's own opinions and strategies. If you make it your enemy you'll never win.

When you relapse it's because your lust wants to and convinces the decision making part of you. The you you so to speak. That only happens because the conscientious part of you, the you who wants to quit porn and have a brighter future, never did the hard work of convincing your lust. Or maybe you tried but failed at it.

To avoid relapse you need to make the decision to quit and stick with it.
To stick with your decision and not doubt yourself every other day means you need to be of one mind.
To be of one mind means that all parts inside you share the same vision for the future.

When you relapse it means your lust still believes in a life with porn. It still thinks it's possible. But your conscientious you doesn't believe that. So you have mental battles with yourself.. every day.
But all that's changed for your lust is that the old game of "lets PMO whenever I want" went to "lets pretend I'm quitting, but every once in a while I'm going to get to win and PMO".
You may not see it that way, but your lust does. As long as that's the case, you're going to keep relapsing.


Change how your lust thinks about porn and you'll win. Make it see clearly how crappy porn is, make it understand it's been eating junk food all day long while there are fine dining restaurants all around. Bring your lust back on your side, let it share your vision of a good life free of porn.

Once you manage that you don't need to worry about relapsing again. No need to worry about triggers either. Once you are sure of what you want nothing can force your hand!


So stop wasting time trying to get rid of triggers and trying to make things as easy as possible externally. Instead focus on the part inside of you that doesn't want to let go. Understand it, convince it, become one and I promise you, the world will fall off your shoulders.

Whenever in doubt, remember this: If you're battling a war inside your mind you're doing it wrong. If it feels easy, you're on the right path.

This is exactly the type of mental gymnastics I played wth myself for decades. The reality is that you want to relapse. I'm 9 months clean mostly hard mode and even now I have a small demon in my head that says man that would feel good, c'mon just one time. But I know that I have to master myself, blaming everything on biology is not helpful here. True addiction goes beyond basic biology into a feedback loop of hell. The only way out is free will, one of the hardest things to attain.