Get educated, get tools, and learn to love withdrawals

Discussion in 'Porn Addiction' started by William, Dec 16, 2013.


    1ANDDONE Fapstronaut

    My first post here was almost 6 years ago. My last post here was almost two years ago. In the meantime I took a lot of time off from posting, but did post on RebootNation and Yourbrainrebalanced, where I still post, from time to time.

    It is amazing to me that, after all this time, we still get newbies without a basic understanding of the neurology involved with what this place calls "porn addiction". Porn addiction is about using a tool to get high. Just that simple. You may have other issues, and you may use porn to avoid them, or self medicate to get away from them, but do not make the mistake of mixing your problems up with your porn addiction. Fix the addiction, and the other problems will look easy.

    The neuroscience behind porn addiction is, relatively, easy to understand. It is the "why" of porn addiction. Our brains evolved to like, want, seek, have sex, millions of years ago. Turns out that thinking of sex has a statistically substantial high likelihood of leading to the real deal. Nature recognized that, in a manner of speaking, millions of years ago, that giving a neurological reward for thought of sex, naturally, being dopamine an endogenous opioid releases/rushes/highs, leads to reproduction.

    Reproduction in all species is the highest, first priority, survival trait. What you interpret as lust or horniness, is just a neurological event in the brain that is encouraging you to make babies.

    Consumption, or eating, is the second priority survival trait.

    High Speed Internet Porn, which came into widespread dissemination somewhere between 2007-2012, allows for something that does not, naturally, occur in either nature or the types of porn that precede it: It allows for a profound and prolonged dopamine and endogenous opioid high, in your brain. Sure, we could think of sex prior to HSIP, but, only with the invention of HSIP, could we really, ahem, jack those thoughts through the roof. Do that, every day, for a year, and the brain comes to expect it, and when the brain comes to expect getting a reward for engaging in activity associated with the first priority survival trait of the species, bam, neurological/chemical reward that is addictive.

    These are basic concepts that should be taught to all newbies. I am suggesting to the forum moderators that some introduction to the basic neuroscience of porn addiction, which is literally dopamine/endogenous opioid addiction, be created, a page where people can go to learn they are not really addicted to porn, but to the brain reaction it causes.

    I see a lot of posts here with genuinely nice newbies, and some not so new, or nice, complaining they want to quit, they can't quit, they don't know how to quit, and some are so far off from the truth they actually think they addicted to a specific category of porn, as opposed to the reward event in the brain hypersexual thoughts lead to.

    Quitting porn is a two phase operation. 1) Study it, and understand it is the brain reaction that is addictive, not porn. Porn is just a tool. 2) Study quitting techniques, such as distraction techniques, plan on handling the withdrawals now, for later when they inevitably come; don't wait to figuring out how to handle them in the middle of withdrawals. Embrace the pain of quitting, anticipate it will happen and cannot be avoided, plan on the pain, and make plans on how you will deal with it other than getting a dopamine high.

    The purpose of the exercise is to reduce your brain's reliance on the dopamine reward that porn allows for. For many, and the number is growing, they have never had a day since puberty where they were not using porn to spike their dopamine levels. It is going to hurt.

    Understand what you are doing and what you are NOT doing. Don't think of it as quitting porn or porn addiction, though you will be quitting those; think of it as training your brain back to normal by a long time of not using porn to get high. You are addicted to the high, it is the end, you are not addicted to the means to the end.

    Quitting will not kill you, but it will hurt, but know that pain goes away. No one ever died of withdrawals, they only make us want to a bit. You can have a future out there where you are porn free and do not miss it. Porn I mean, not dopamine. In the future you will obtain your dopamine high, at lower levels, the way you were evolved to do so.

    Much love.

    Last edited: Oct 26, 2019
    Granddad Julian and Free-man like this.
  2. im_alive

    im_alive Fapstronaut

    Or fix the other problems, and quitting porn will be easy.

    1ANDDONE Fapstronaut


    1ANDDONE Fapstronaut

    Porn and memory.

    I can remember the first time I experienced porn.

    Think about that.

    Then turn it around.

    I cannot forget the first time I experienced porn.

    Cannot forget.

    Maybe I want to forget it, but I cannot forget it. Why?

    My brain will not let me forget it. Neither will yours.

    One of the survival mechanisms of the human brain is an inability to forget things it interprets as very good or very bad.

    The brain wires in memories of things it interprets as "very good" by a dopamine response and DeltaFosB. From Wikipedia (and please skim this, and don't go too far down the rabbit hole):

    ΔFosB also plays an important role in regulating behavioral responses to natural rewards, such as palatable food, sex, and exercise.[10][16] Natural rewards, similar to drugs of abuse, induce gene expression of ΔFosB in the nucleus accumbens, and chronic acquisition of these rewards can result in a similar pathological addictive state through ΔFosB overexpression.[10][11][16] Consequently, ΔFosB is the key mechanism involved in addictions to natural rewards (i.e., behavioral addictions) as well;[10][11][16] in particular, ΔFosB in the nucleus accumbens is critical for the reinforcing effects of sexual reward.[16] Research on the interaction between natural and drug rewards suggests that dopaminergic psychostimulants (e.g., amphetamine) and sexual behavior act on similar biomolecular mechanisms to induce ΔFosB in the nucleus accumbens and possess bidirectional reward cross-sensitization effects[note 1] that are mediated through ΔFosB.[11][37] This phenomenon is notable since, in humans, a dopamine dysregulation syndrome, characterized by drug-induced compulsive engagement in natural rewards (specifically, sexual activity, shopping, and gambling), has also been observed in some individuals taking dopaminergic medications.[11]

    OK, come back up to the surface.

    Whether we want to, or not, we cannot forget events that our brain produces a natural reward for.

    My brain, your brain, produced a natural reward for experiencing porn.

    My brain, your brain, produced a natural reward for experiencing porn, because experiencing porn produced a sexual THOUGHT.

    Sexual thoughts are rewarded with a dopamine rush, and a release of endogenous opioids, in the brain.


    Because thinking about sex tends to lead to sex, and sex leads to reproduction, and reproduction is our first, primary, wired, instinct. Nature really does not care much about the individual. Nature cares about the species. The species who are most successful, are the species that can reproduce, make more of themselves.

    About a decade ago we invented High Speed Internet. A second later we invented High Speed Internet Porn. HSIP allows us to have hypersexual thoughts that we cannot forget. Maybe you want to forget them, but you, literally, cannot. Once the human brain experiences a brain reward, it can never forget where it got it. This is a successful survival trait.

    I know, what the fuck? Right? Sucks, but this is part of the addiction, and understanding it helpful.

    We use porn to spike a dopamine rush that we interpret, and feel, as liking, wanting, seeking, getting. Gabe Deem has described it as Pleasure. That's as good a word as any: people who use porn use it to feel pleasure. Not everyone feels that, by the way. I, often, use the concept of gambling addiction as a comparative. I don't like gambling. It brings me no pleasure. Same with cigarettes. I like drugs, but I don't use them, because I am aware of their potential for addiction. I drink, but in relative moderation. Point being, there is a reason why we do, why we "like", what we do and what we like, and that is a brain reaction. It is evolved, it is innate, learn to deal with it, not eliminate it.

    Owing to DeltaFosB, as well as dopamine, once the human brain experiences a brain reward, it can never forget it. It becomes hardwired in our memory. In nature, that is a good thing. We remember where the food is, the water is, the sex is. We, literally, cannot forget it.

    Then, we invented HSIP. It is a tool we use to produce sexual thoughts, and sexual thoughts are rewarded, and, when rewarded, become unforgettable. The human brain never forgets the reward; it simply cannot. That is a code that once written, cannot be written over.

    This is why HSIP can become, for some, but not all, addictive. Once we hit the reward, we cannot forget where can get the reward. It is difficult not going back to where we can get an easy reward. We all like the reward.

    A big part of quitting porn addiction is understanding how we use HSIP to get the reward, and embracing the concept that we will, consciously, choose NOT to get the reward. That is a fucking bitter pill. But, if you want to quit the addiction, you are going to have to take that fucking bitter pill.

    Just understand, you are not giving up the reward. You are just choosing to get it the way nature intended it. The reward you get from HSIP and PMO is far more efficient, and higher, than you can get it naturally. Thus, addiction. But you can, still, get it. The difference is, getting it naturally, or, being a slave to it. Addiction, by the way, is a word grounded in Latin, meaning enslaved to.

    Understand yourself. Don't be a slave.

    Much love.

    Will I AM.
    Free-man and Granddad Julian like this.

    1ANDDONE Fapstronaut

    The myth of porn categories, and the role of sensitization, desensitization, and escalation, over, and over, and over, in forming the addiction.

    I see many people claiming to be addicted to X porn, whatever X is. That misses the point. First, porn is not addictive. Porn, literally, is the depiction of sex. A depiction of sex is not addictive. But what does that depiction of sex lead to? It leads to thoughts of sex. Thoughts of sex, in turn, lead to a dopamine rush, a dopamine high. Can a dopamine high be addictive? I will just jump ahead to the punchline: They can if you are using porn to elevate them. The use of porn to elevate your dopamine high, and PMO to elevate your endogenous opioid release, can become addictive. But, it not porn that is addictive, it is the high PMO produces, in the brain, that is addictive. Understand this, and you are halfway home.

    Have you ever asked yourself why there are so many categories? It has to do with desensitization. If there was one black and white picture of porn, it would fascinate us for a day, then get boring. We would be sensitive to it, and then desensitize to it. Translation, the thoughts we have when looking at it would, eventually, fail to produce a dopamine rush, at least one as profound as initially. This pattern is present in all addictions, which is why Suzy went from one like of coke a day to ten lines of coke a day, then to rehab. Suzy is a false name to protect the disclosure of Nancy's name. All addictions escalate.

    Goes like this. View X porn for a while, get a dopamine/endogenous opioid high, but, after a while, you desensitize to X. You still like it, but not as much as before. So, you go out and search for another type, category of porn. Remember, dopamine hits come from liking, wanting, searching, getting. So, searching for something new gives you a hit, just like the sexual thoughts so. And you find B porn. Don't know what B porn is, but it is a bit shocking, more so than A porn, and often involves elements of subtle violence or humiliation--because humans are a seriously fucked up species. Do B porn for a while, and it gets a bit boring (desensitization), meaning it is not getting you the dopamine rush you first got with X porn, so you go looking and find F porn (sensitization bingo!), and that works, for a while until you desensitize to that form of porn. This is why guys come to think they are addicted to categories, when, in fact, the addiction is to the dopamine endogenous opioid rush that thoughts of never before thought of sex produce.
    Remember, for a small segment of the population (welcome home) porn is a tool we can use to get that dopamine high. We invented it, because we invent all our addictions, even when we do not know we are inventing them.

    Study the problem, know it, know thyself, and you will be far more successful in quitting porn, and achieving all your goals.

    I have absolute confidence you will succeed.

    Much love.

    Last edited: Oct 28, 2019
    Summer Son, Free-man and 4eyedfox like this.
  6. Summer Son

    Summer Son Fapstronaut

    It is good to see you here again William. This is one of best helpful thread in the whole internet about pornography/dopamine addiction.I have read the post on here and RebootNation. Just thanks for everything! " This is not a streak, being clean is a struggle that we have to make everyday."
    Personally, this is the hardest thing I've ever done and I will never back to porn again. No matter how periodly I experience withdrawals or bad days or triggers from internal or external factors. "Porn is just a button to get dopamine high." That simple. Just this sentence really helped me. I do not have a question but I just want to say thank you!

    1ANDDONE Fapstronaut

    Thanks for the kind words @Summer Son . We all need kind words once in a while. Peace. W.

    1ANDDONE Fapstronaut

    Upon the topic of using porn, or exposing yourself to the brain high you get while using porn, during a reboot: It is BAD, don't do it. Get clean first, then introduce yourself to your new self, and decide then if you want to use.

    You said:

    "For some reason in this community "relapse" somehow means any type of use. While in reality it means going back to previous level of use after attempt to stop."

    I have said it before, and I will say it again: We are early days in the study of all addictions, and porn addiction has only come into existence in the last few years, as in maybe as little as 12 years, with the invention of HSIP. We liked porn before, but addiction to porn was not reported prior to the invention of High Speed Internet Porn.

    Relapse is not a scientific, or technical term. It can mean different things to different people. I, for instance, have not relapsed, in approximately 6 years. At this point, I would really have to work on it to get back to where I was prior to quitting, and it would be difficult, as I have practiced not relapsing, at least for the first year of quitting, every day.

    The NoFap forum defines relapse as follows: For addicts, the act of returning to bad habits after a period of improvement.

    First thing, addicts relapse. People who casually push a trigger to get a brain reaction, but are not addicts, are not relapsing by pushing the trigger and getting the reaction. An example: a person who can drink weekly, but not to excess, and without negative consequences in their lives.

    In the beginning, in the quitting phase, I avoided all artificial sexual stimulation like the plague. I did not watch even R movies, but if something sexy came on, I would actually close my eyes. I developed distraction techniques to prevent a 2 second sexual thought from become a porn-imagining 20 minute sex opera between my ears.

    Now though? I suppose I am, more or less, back to normal. I am not watching porn every day, but I don't avoid it like the plague, and I don't use it, like I use to, to get high, so no PMO. For people quitting, avoiding porn like the plague has to be one of your goals. For an addict, avoiding what they are addicted to has to be consciously done, it is a choice, but, for an addict, if they choose to use whatever they are addicted to, getting high is not a choice, it is automatic, it is Pavlovian.

    Of course, one the distinctions I make between the behavioral addictions, such as porn, and the substance addictions, is their models of recovery. AA uses the 12 step program, and submission to a higher power. I know some people who say that recovery model works for porn, but, for me, simple abstinence to rewired the brain not to expect that dopamine and endogenous rush is, essentially, the model. There are tricks to help with that along the way, but, quitting porn, like getting addicted to it, can be, and for me, was, most efficient as a solitary activity.

    Your definition of relapse does not include any type of use. However, an addict in the quitting phase cannot have any type of use, or, at least, if they want their reboot to be the most successful and efficient, they cannot have any type of use. I don't say any type of use during the reboot sets the rebooter back to day one, but it does make it much less likely that, at day 90 (the common wisdom number of days an addict must go cold turkey, at least with porn), they will have reached their goal of not wanting, not needing, not missing, not using, porn, FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIVES. Once rebooted, using porn, or more correctly NOT using porn, which was always a choice, becomes a daily choice that many find simply easy.

    This is where a lot of the newbies have told me to go fuck myself, and I am full of shit. For a brand new porn addict who has recognized the problem, but has not seen the solution, telling them 1) they can live without porn, 2) they should live without porn, and 3) living without porn is possible, is offensive. Porn, for a newbie, especially, is their best friend, their girlfriend, a drug, and a friendly uncle, who never demand anything in return, all rolled into one.

    So, let me leave you with this thought: The best, most efficient, most successful way of quitting porn it to quit using porn. That will hurt, but that is the truth.

    Much love.

    Will I AM.
    Reborn16, 4eyedfox and Free-man like this.

    1ANDDONE Fapstronaut


    Above is a link to an interview it Alexander Rhodes. Watch it and learn.

    The question: Is porn addiction real? My answer is: Yes, but the term is inexact, and maybe we should work on creating new language that more correctly describes the brain event that results from the super stimuli that is High Speed Internet Porn. It is the brain event that is addictive, PMO is just a highly efficient means of producing it. The brain event is not in response to PMO, per se, but in response to the hypersexual sexual thoughts, that lead to the brain event, that is addictive.

    Alexander makes the distinction between HSIP and your granddaddy's porn. HSIP made the addiction, for a small portion of the population, possible.

    Alexander has no moral judgment on porn, but had the feeling every newbie has, when they first try and quit, which is "I can't stop". Alexander had to learn the truth, every addict has to learn before they can quit, which is what I call the impossible thought for those addicted to PMO: I can quit, I will quit, if quitting kills me, I will die before I go back. Fun thought of the day. I used that thought many times a day, for every day, for months when I was quitting, I embraced it. I thought: "Quitting feels like I am dying, but if I have to die to stay Quit, if Quitting kills me, I am dying, because I am never going back."

    If you are a newbie, and you want to quit, I say, come on in, the water is warm, love you, but thoughts like that are just how easy quitting is. It is OK, just know it going in, if you are addicted, no easy way, just the incredibly fucking hard and painful way out. Ready.....go!

    He discusses how he used PMO to condition his brain. Anyone reading this who wants to know how to stop this, just know that understanding the brain science involved, and how we use PMO to condition our brains to expect a daily dopamine and endogenous brain reward, so much, with continued, constant, use, that we become addicted to that feeling, is key to overcoming the problem (and no, overcoming is not a pun). Dopamine has to do with liking/loving, wanting, seeking, and getting, and our brain rewards those things with a dopamine high. We can use HSIP to like/love, want, seek, and get, and as a result, it can be very addictive--not the act of PMO itself, but the brain reaction we get from it. Porn addiction can be understood in terms of simple Pavlovian neuroscience. Your homework is to google Pavlov, and Pavlovian. If you are trying to quit porn, do it; at least you won't be watching porn while you are doing it.

    We talk about porn induced erectile dysfunction, PIED, but Alexander says it a bit more spot on. Owing to hyper-sensitization to the dopamine and endogenous opioid high we can use PMO to achieve, if one has become addicted to that high, one becomes unable to maintain "arousal" with a real person. That is the basis of PIED. PIED looks like a physical problem, below the belt, but, in fact, those whom we call "porn addicts" develop PIED because their brain's have been trained to be sensitive to PMO, rather than actual sex. Porn addiction and porn recovery are 100% about your brain's reality, and have nothing to do with your junk. Put it this way, a PMO addict's brain will trigger a dopamine high to PMO, but in training the brain to do that--and call it what you will, but continued, daily, use of PMO is training--you have trained the brain to prefer PMO over sex. The neurochemical and neurotransmitter ques that get you hard for PMO, won't, for many addicts at least, work to get you hard for sex, with an actual person, which the brain has become desensitized to. Sucks...….not literally, of course....

    Alexander talks about a real problem for porn addicts, especially, I think, those who are in the reboot/quitting phase, and that is use of porn memory during sex, or, for that matter, porn memory in place of PMO to achieve a dopamine high. In some ways my own addiction may have been less debilitating that Alexander's. I never had to think of porn, use memory of porn, during sex, back when I was addicted, to have sex: Thoughts of my actual partner, in real time, during sex, were enough to be hard. I never developed PIED. My problem was inability, or great difficulty, in reaching O during sex, aka, anorgasmia.

    For me "porn memory" was most problematic after I quit porn, during the reboot, because after I ceased using porn, I did use porn memory during sex, to reach O. When I say "used", I mean that one of the things I did in the reboot, which it took me a second to realize was a huge mistake, was to reach O, while having sex, by using porn memory. I was, essentially, using my partner, to masturbate. Eventually, I learned to reach O with only thoughts of my partner, but that took a lot of practice after using PMO almost exclusively, for years, to achieve it. That was a fact that was not discussed much in the forums those days--the fact that your brain, having sensitized to PMO as a means of achieving a dopamine, endogenous opioid reward--for some anyway, needed to use memories of porn, during sex, to achieve that reward.

    We have since come to understand that, during the reboot, it is not only PMO that must be avoided, but sexual thoughts that should be avoided, in order for the reboot to be most efficient. Why? Because while sexual thoughts are part of our hard wiring, in the brain, and serve a healthy (and pleasurable) function, it is the dopamine and endogenous opioid reward that results from them that is the basis of the addiction. During the reboot, you want to avoid sexual thoughts as much as possible, but what you are really avoiding is using them to feed your addiction to the high they result in.

    Quitting porn means living with a much reduced brain reward for sexual thoughts. It's not about replacing it, it is about learning to live with a lot less of it, and getting it a lot less often--a fact many addicts hate.

    Alexander talks about the creation of Nofap, as a place for addicts to recover, and it is. There are two concepts here, that are interesting to me, and that is the creation of the site, and its purpose, the conceived purpose of this site; and the site embracing, or being part, of a certain type of recovery method.

    I don't know if the site was originally created as a porn addiction recovery forum, because I am uncertain that the concept of "porn addiction" was fully formed.

    Anyone who reads me know I am interested in a couple of things only an ex porn addict could find mildly interesting: 1) the history of porn addiction, and 2) the history of porn addiction recovery forums.

    As for the history of this forum, Alexander Rhodes, who created it, first posted here on April 7, 2013. A good argument could be made that "porn addiction", which was made possible only with the invention and widespread dissemination of HSIP, only came into existence in the 2010-2012 time frame. That is when we invented a way to get high on HSIP. Yeah! I am guessing that, since Alexander is the founder, he was the first poster. I could not track his posting history back all the way, but when I first found the site, the science of porn addiction was nascent. A LOT of people knew they were having trouble with it, but not sure it was identified, much at all, as an addiction, and consequently, a lot posters were not thinking of themselves in terms of addicts; it was not, yet, generally accepted that porn addiction was possible, or, that if possible, that a cure was conceived of. In fact, I think when this site was first started, it was a spin off of Redditt, and, specifically, a page where members were, at that time, logging in, and dealing with problematic porn consumption by challenging themselves onr how long they could go without PMO, before PMOing again--not really a recovery concept.

    Interesting, I went to the "Reboot--Porn Addiction Recovery" forum, went to the oldest posts I could find, and voila!, found Alexander Rhode's post, I presume his first post, from April 7. 2013. It is titled: Who are the NoFappers? Here it is, let's break it down:

    "NoFappers is the sister website of Reddit’s r/NoFap community. Unlike Reddit’s constantly-changing news feed where good information quickly gets buried, having our own website allows for us to have easily accessible static content along with many other options. It is a work in progress so please keep checking back! NoFappers is by no means a replacement for r/NoFap – the website was created to merely complement the subreddit and we recommend utilizing both resources.

    NoFappers is a venue for fapstronauts, male or female, to openly discuss the many tangible benefits of NOT masturbating for a period of time. Whether your goal is to casually participate in a weekly or monthly reboot as a test of self control, or if PMO has become an addictive problem in your life and you want to quit for a longer period of time, you will find a home and friends here. For new visitors please view the Your Brain on Porn presentation for a semi-scientific look at why we’re quitting. However, Fapstronauts choose to quit for a variety of different reasons."

    So, you can see that, from day 1, PMO is recognized as potentially addictive, but, not emphasized, so much, and YBOP is mentioned, but only as "semi-scientific." What we know, now, is that addictions must be QUIT, they cannot really be played with, but those concepts were not well developed in 2013. And, of course, we now know Gary Wilson's work is totally scientific.

    Anyway, Alexander, thanks for being brave, thanks for educating, thanks for giving a lot of us a place to take the journey to Freedom.

    Anyone reading this: PMO addiction is you in chains. BREAK THEM!

    Much Love

    Last edited: Nov 3, 2019
    Reborn16 and im_alive like this.
  10. Also p-addiction screws up the memory, it seems.
  11. 1ANDDONE

    1ANDDONE Fapstronaut

    @icebreaker polarstern

    Hi Ice. Like the name.

    When I quit porn, it was very helpful for me to study the problem. I did not study porn, because porn is not the problem. When newbies show up here, most have not taken time to study the problem, they just know they have one. The problem is conditioning the brain to receive a sexual reward from PMOing, to the point of addiction. If anyone is new, and is reading this, there is a very good section you can access by clicking on the Home link, at the upper left hand of the page, and from there clicking on Porn Addiction Basics. Better take time to arm yourself with knowledge.

    Part of our evolved reality is that nature wants us to learn. Learning, the ability to learn, the inability not to learn, when it comes to some things, and the impossibility of forgetting, some things, is key to formation of what we call "porn addiction." There is a method to this madness, and knowing what it is, helps.

    Nature wants us to learn what is "good", or desirable, or helpful in survival, and reproduction.

    Our brains have evolved to interpret sex, as in actually having sex, as "good." There is no moral element here, it is just that without sex, there is no reproduction, with no reproduction, no babies, and species over. So, Nature (figuratively) thought up this little neurological reward for thinking of sex, called a dopamine high. The feeling you like, when you are PMOing, or just watching/searching porn, and sometimes just thinking about sex is a dopamine high.

    So, wanting to have sex, getting it, and receiving a neurological reward for it (dopamine and endogenous opioids), are a successful survival trait in all successful species, at least mammals.

    Nature does not just reward the act--and this is where porn comes in--nature rewards thoughts of sex, thinking of it, fantasizing about it. Why? Turns out the more a species thinks about sex, the more likely they are to have it, and having it leads to Nature's first purpose: reproduction.

    And here is where memory comes in. When you think about sex, or have sex, you get a dopamine rush that reinforces the concept of "this is good." But it does not stop there. In addiction to getting that "feel good feeling", deltafosb, a regulatory protein, in the brain, that serves to create and sustain memories of "good" WON'T LET US FORGET WHERE WE GOT GOOD, whatever good we got that got us a dopamine high.

    From Wiki: ΔFosB also plays an important role in regulating behavioral responses to natural rewards, such as palatable food, sex, and exercise. Natural rewards, similar to drugs of abuse, induce gene expression of ΔFosB in the nucleus accumbens, and chronic acquisition of these rewards can result in a similar pathological addictive state through ΔFosB overexpression. Consequently, ΔFosB is the key mechanism involved in addictions to natural rewards (i.e., behavioral addictions) as well; in particular, ΔFosB in the nucleus accumbens is critical for the reinforcing effects of sexual reward.

    Dopamine, endogenous opioids, deltafosb, all are about reinforcing behavior that results in sexual reward, not sex per se, and we can use porn to achieve the same sexual reward, and once we do, we can never forget where we got it, 'till death do us part.

    I do not remember every porn scene I have watched, but I cannot forget I can access porn on the internet. And its not just about remembering it, when I remember it, even if only in a general way, I am giving myself a little dopamine rush. It's not addictive, remembering it, and, when naturally occuring, is a great survival trait. It works the same with food, as hunger is the second most important survival trait. When our brains were evolving it was a very helpful survival trait NOT to be able to forget where we got food and where we got sex. This addiction works the same way, it is just that there is no survival advantage to remember the sexual reward you get from PMO.

    So, the hard 90. 90 days no porn, no PMO, no M, no O, no sex. FUUCKING SUCKS!!! But, if you can do it, and you can, it is the most efficient means of bending your brain back to more, or less, normal. Get clean first, and, then, afterward, figure out what triggers you want to push to get your brain rewards. Make that decision sober. The question is not whether you can do this, the question is whether you will. At the end of the day, either you own you, or the addiction owns you. Sucks to be owned by an addiction.
    Much love.

    Will I AM.


    Because I saw the question. The answer is: Yes, you can. Don't let the addiction tell you, you can't. The only reason you question whether you can is because the addiction has lied to you. That MotherBitcher is a liar. Own yourself.
  12. 1ANDDONE

    1ANDDONE Fapstronaut

    Part of me thinks we really ought to make newbies test in, because a lot are not taking the time to GET EDUCATED.

    That is OK, it is their time, but if you are a newbie and WANT TO QUIT, quitting will be far more efficient if you understand what you are quitting. Hint, it's not porn. You are quitting, if you are quitting, using porn to give yourself a neurological reward. Yep. It's all in the brain.

    So, lets look at the resources on this site, and break them down.

    On the homepage there is a link to "Porn Addiction Basics." Click it, and analyze.

    The section starts with a characterization of porn addiction. This interesting to me because the majority of psychologists/psychiatrists, in the world, do not admit there is such a thing as porn addiction. If you have ever been addicted, you know that it exists, but it is hard for a lot of people to understand that. That's OK, I don't understand, for instance, gambling addiction. Gambling never did anything for me, I don't like it. Yet, the same scientists that do not accept porn (PMO) can be addicting, embrace that gambling can. This falls into the category of perception = reality. I think it is very early in the study of all addictions. The study of addictions is the study of manipulating our environment and perception to artificially produce a neurological reward. Porn works for me, to get that. Sex does too. Food does too. I like other things as well, but, maybe not so much they are addictive. For ALL addictions, getting the neurological reward translates to getting a dopamine high. Dopamine is a neurotransmitter that does a lot of things in the brain. It even has to do with balance. So, for instance, if you drink a lot, or get an extremely powerful orgasm, from porn, or sex, or just MO, and stand up, your balance will be effected. That has to do with fucking up your dopamine reward pathways.

    "Not all porn use can be characterized as addictive." I think the better way to say it is: "Not all people are addicted to porn". We post in a forum titled "porn addiction". We don't get a lot of Corvette enthusiasts posting here about their cars. The people that post here identify and recognize porn addiction. Because of that, though, we can be a bit myopic. Just because everyone here has a problem with porn, does not mean everyone in the world does. There are people who can pick up and put it down. Addicts cannot do that, but non addicts can. Same with every other addiction. But, self awareness is key. Most of us here got addicted before we knew it was even possible to get addicted. Many were addicted before the words "porn addiction" had been put together. I have to say this far out I am surprised when newbies have the though "I am addicted" when they did not know it was even possible. We need to educate people about the potentially addictive effects of High Speed Internet Porn. Not everyone who watches it, as in engages in PMO sessions while watching it, will become addicted to it; most won't; some can, and some will.

    How Porn Addiction Works.

    This really should be required reading. For an addict wants to NOT be an addict, the addict must first learn what they actually are. We call it porn addiction, but that is inapt, and inexact. The addiction is to a neurological reward, that we figured out how to produce, using porn. It is not like we, humanity, sat in a big circle and pondered the question: "How can we invent a behavior that results in an addictive neurological reward.?" Though, being human, if we could have had that conversation, we probably would have, because, despite knowing that addictions are bad, we have created, invented, every single addiction that exists, including this one. Addictions do not naturally occur because they are a negative survival trait, and an animal that is addicted is less likely to survive and reproduce.

    Addiction has to do with learning and conditioning. The dopamine reward event has to do with liking/loving-wanting-seeking-getting. I hate to use the word "love", to describe a purely neurological event, but, we romanticize a lot of purely biological realities, so love it is. In nature, as in a million years ago, before the invention of the internet, electricity, or, even the written word, our ancestors were interested in surviving. Not just individually, but as a species, altogether. Back then we had the two main hardwired drives, that we still have now, that the neurological reward system encourages: Getting sex, and getting food, probably in that order. If we got sex, in our brains we "learned" where and how we got sex. Via various brain events, DeltaFosB, being key, we probably could not forget where we got sex, meaning we could always remember where we got sex, and would be inclined to go back to where we got it. Same with food. If we found an apple tree in a valley, we got a dopamine high for the liking/loving-wanting-seeking-getting, and, owning to DeltaFosB, could never forget where we got the apple. That neurological reward, and the inability to forget it, is a successful survival trait, in nature. Problem/Reality: We can artificially produce the same reward with porn, and, part of the reality of the addiction, we CANNOT FORGET GETTING IT WITH PORN. Part of the formation of the addiction is ability to produce the reward, and inability to forget getting it, and how to get it.

    Fucking is beneficial to the species because fucking leads to babies, and making babies is natures first priority. Translating this to the neurological reward: People who love the neurological reward that comes with fucking, are more likely to pass their genes down, in the form of their children, thus, really, really liking that neurological reward is a successful survival trait.

    For some of us, the primitive brain, that part of the brain that creates a neurological reward for thinking of sex and having it, cannot distinguish between thinking of sex with a real person, and thinking of sex with the people in the pixels: Both types of thought, being indistinguishable to the primitive brain, are rewarded with a neurological reward.

    Problem 1: Porn is more available than sex. Yes, it is, and far more efficient than sex, at getting the neurological reward.

    In nature, a million years ago, it was almost impossible to get too much of a good thing, so, when the good thing was available, we got as much of it as we could, and it, mostly was no problem. We have altered our reality, our environment, and our perception of reality, via porn, and not just porn. We have invented a lot of addictions that do not occur, and were not events, our brains evolved to deal with. At the time our primitive brains evolved to the place they are now, and stopped evolving, the events that led to a neurological reward were scare. We have built a world where, for some anyway, the events that lead to a neurological reward are abundant.

    The role of novelty, seeking the never before porn thought, in the formation of the addiction. A lot about understanding this addiction is about understanding who you are as a person, as a human, as an evolved human animal. Somewhere in our evolutionary past, we evolved a brain that gives a neurological reward not only for sex, but for sex with new partners. Disclaimer: I am a one partner guy, for life. I like it that way, so this part of your education is not about choosing a lifestyle. But, from an evolutionary perspective, spreading your genes, mixing them together to form a new, and unique, human, was something nature found beneficial, and rewarded with, yet, the neurological reward, the dopamine high. In porn, the way this plays out is what I call "moving through the categories." We start out with vanilla porn, or porn we see as our normal, healthy, sexuality, but, eventually, it becomes boring to us. Translation: Eventually the neurological reward we get from the porn we first start with, lessens, as our brains become desensitized to it. Once the brain desensitizes to that category of porn we have to move to another category of porn, and the new category, for reasons I don't think anyone truly understands, has to be a bit shocking to us, to get that old dopamine high. Eventually we get bored with that, and have to move on to another category.

    The same thing happens with sex. The first time you are with someone it is usually BAAAAMMMM!!!! The thousandth time, not so much. I am a one partner kind of guy, and I like it that way, but sex, now, does not produce the same neurological reward that sex, the first time, did. That is OK, just understand the brain and what is going on in there.

    Porn allows endless novelty. We never have to watch the same porn scene twice. That ability to search for a never before scene is part of the formation of the addiction. Remember, the neurological reward is about liking/loving-wanting-seeking-getting. We evolved the neurological reward not, only, for getting the thing nature figures is beneficial, but for seeking it out, as well. In a sense we get it for "hunting." Think of searching porn, browsing it, for hours, maybe even edging while you are doing it, as hunting for the scene you have chosen to O to. It is not just the O that results in the neurological reward, is it hunting for the scene you will choose to O with that is rewarded, as well.

    Porn is more stimulating than sex. I would say it a bit differently: Porn is more efficient than sex in producing a neurological reward. Porn is a super stimulus. it's not the only one. Alcohol, drugs, are too. These are thing that are unnatural, as, in literally, do not and did not occur in nature, when the primitive brain evolved to its current model, then stopped evolving. This is OK, but one of the things addicts hate to hear is that quitting the addiction means living without super stimulation. The point is not to replace it with something health, because no super stimulus is health; the point is to live with, and enjoy life, with normal stimulation.

    The cycle that forms addiction: Sensitization, desentization, escalation, resentitization, over and over and over.

    So, if there were one porn scene on the internet, for guys like us, the first time we watched it, it would be enthralling, fascinating. it would give us that neurological reward we like so much. For about a month. Then, we would start to desensitize to it; boring is the word that probably fits. But there is not just one porn scene; there are, effectively, endless porn scenes. You never have to watch the same one twice. Again, "moving through the categories." Addicts fix on one category of porn, and use it to generate a dopamine high, a neurological reward. That works for a while, the addict is sensitized to that category, for a while. But, eventually, that category is not working to achieve the neurological reward; the addict has desensitized to it. At that point, the addict escalates, which in terms of porn, means moves to a new category, that, usually, has something that is somewhat shocking to the addict. Over years that repeats and repeats and repeats, at least for an addict. Again, there ARE people who are not addicted, who get off on one scene their entire lives, by which I mean get a neurological reward their entire lives. Addicts do not.

    The physical side effects of porn addiction are Porn Induced Erectile Dysfunction, and anorgasmia, or inability to reach O during sex. I had the latter, but it is fixed now. Here I would deviate a bit from the text and say there need be no underlying reason for porn addiction other than just liking to get the neurological reward. The psychological side effects discussed are ones I am not certain I ever experienced when using porn, but super experienced when quitting, in the form of withdrawals. When that neurological fountain goes from a fountain to a trickle, you brain is going to punish you for it with anxiety, brain fog, the shakes, the sweats, day and night terrors. Totally sucks, just know going in, it is going to happen, and, within a few months, it will totally go away. People, especially younger people, are not being taught about the negative side effect of porn use, especially compulsive, daily, porn use, over years. It effects their perception of themselves and sex, and it can have negative social consequences. Again, not judging porn on a moral ground, but kids should be taught that porn has a brain consequence that can be negative, and is never a good thing.

    The solution. Just as you trained your brain to get that neurological reward, you can train your brain to live without it, as in live without it and not want it and not miss it. That is done through brain training we call rebooting, or sometime The Hard 90. The Hard 90 is about doing 90 days, no porn, no PMO, no MO, no O, no sex, no vanilla porn, no porn substitutes, and attempting to limit sexual thought as much as possible, in short, cutting way back on the neurological reward that porn can produce.

    At the bottom is a link that says See our page on Rebooting! I will, but that is a post for a different day.

    GET EDUCATED! It helps. Porn can seem like a huge problem, but it really is just about understanding that through porn you have bent your brain to expect unnaturally high neurological rewards, unnaturally often. The solution: bend your brain back to normal. It can be done, many have.

    Will I AM 1ANDDONE
    4eyedfox and Deleted Account like this.
  13. Hey William,
    thank you very much for your time!
    Your advice is priceless. I think you've got a very clear understanding of the addiction in it's core and how to get rid of it. And also how to educate others about it.
    This forum lacks people like you. Well there are ... few.
    Maybe your approach could even be a bridge between those that see themselves as addicts and seek for recovery and those that are more habit and lifestyle-orientated. Just a thought though ...

    I wish you well! And I'll let you know when I've done the "hard 90".
    Love, ice.

    Good point. Many guys panic when they have a reset after a long streak of abstinence. But it depends on how much one has rewired his or her brain and .. well, how much and for how long one relapse back into the old behaviors.
    Also Alexander has recently posted that masturbation once (and not in a harmful way) is to be considered a "reset", not a "relapse".
  14. 1ANDDONE

    1ANDDONE Fapstronaut

    @icebreaker polarstern

    Hi Ice, thanks for the kind words. Those who are most successful take time to understand what they are quitting, what they are giving up. A lot of people think they are giving up porn, masturbation, and orgasm (PMO), and they are, but that is not, really, what they are giving up. What they are giving up is using those tools--that is right, they are tools-- to achieve a neurological reward, via artificial super stimulation. It all happens in the brain. This problem, and its solution, is all above the belt, and, really, is about training every-single-day. It is like if you have never run before. Get up, run, hurts. By day 20 it hurts less. Hurts a lot less byday 60. If done right, if done most efficiently, with true commitment, by day 90, running the same distance is like talking a walk in the park, was, before you started. One of the things about quitting getting that dopamine high via porn is, that while difficult at first, it gets easier with time. Then one day, you wake up, and you simply do not miss it at all. I've been called a liar on that, but it is the truth.

    Much love.

    Will I AM 1ANDDONE
    Deleted Account likes this.
  15. 1ANDDONE

    1ANDDONE Fapstronaut

    Mommy and Daddy are arguing, and it is no fun.

    So, logged on today, as I am sure everyone else did, and got this video presentation at the top of the page. First time this has happened, here, as far as I know. Let's break it down.

    It is a video posting by Staci Sprout. Staci says she is a recovered or recovering porn addict, and has is a Licensed Independent Clinical Social Worker, AND a Certified Sex Addition Therapist.

    She says she treats clients with porn addiction and compulsive sexual behavior.

    This is interesting to me, because I do not recall having seen a therapist ever acknowledge that "porn addiction", or, PMO, is, actually addictive. So she is in the minority of therapists and scientists. She also mixes the concepts of porn addiction and compulsive sexual behavior. Not sure I am comfortable with that, as one is not the other, but....let's give her the benefit of the doubt.

    She published a memoir called "Naked in Public." Naked in Public: A Memoir of Recovery From Sex Addiction and Other Temporary Insanities. It is available on Amazon.

    She discusses being attacked, online, by people cozy with the porn industry.

    She talks about one person having filed multiple complaints regarding her licensure. I think we all know that is "She who shall not be named."

    Staci talks about Nofap and Alexander Rhodes being under attack by the same person who harassed her. I am NOT saying her name. If you say her name she knows it, she can find you. You all get this from Harry Potter, right?

    FOOTNOTE: If you are a newbie, to make the whole fucking situation even more bat shit crazy, there is a WAR going on over whether porn is addictive, or not. It has gotten very personal, and there is a federal lawsuit, or two, or get the idea. People with a lot of letters behind their name, and, maybe, with too much time on their hands, are suing each other over claims that porn addiction is real, v. porn addiction is not real, and to some extent, God. I capitalized God, out of respect for my grandparents and my religious upbringing.

    This may be the most direct attack on the "porn industry" I have seen coming from NoFap, which, generally, takes no position on "the porn industry", and focuses, instead, in identifying the problem, and solving the problem. I have not seen much about "the porn industry" being the problem, as opposed to chronic use of porn to achieve a dopamine high, resulting in addiction to the dopamine high. We tend to get a little myopic in here, on a "porn addiction" website, and can come to think that porn addiction is widespread. I don't know, maybe it is, but, personally, I think it happens to a small percentage of people. Sure, it's a multi billion dollar industry, and a lot of people are consuming porn, but, I think, few are "addicted" to it. I think a lot of people gamble, but more are not addicted to it.

    Staci claims that She who shall not be named has close ties to the porn industry. I looked online to try and substantiate that claim, and, really, could not. I think the most I could find on this is that She knows, or was once in the presence of, a porn star. Not sure that constitutes a close tie to the porn industry Staci says that She who shall not be named, and her dark forces, are attempting to shut down NoFap. Uhhhhh, maybe a stretch. Again, this is Mommy and Daddy fighting, and I hate it: This is a collection of scientists, on one hand (no pun, if you know who I mean, which I will call "He who shall not be named"--they are not married, but they definitely like each other, and HATE people who claim porn addiction is real), and another collection of scientists, arguing about whether porn is addictive. Let me be clear about my position: I believe Gary Wilson. I also believe we are EARLY days in the study of the phenomenon; substance addiction was recognized over 100 years ago; behavioral addiction has only been recognized about 40 years ago; porn addiction has not been accepted as a diagnosis by the DSM; and we have a lot of time in front of us to study it, and, maybe, invent new words to describe it.

    Staci talks about cyber attacks on NoFap. There is some evidence that She who shall not be named has attempted to micky mouse cyber platforms. Gary Wilson claims She attempted to steal his website by creating a website called [this site will not allow me to post it, so put real in front of, and you can get there]. Own yourself, look and make your own decision. Is she a porn addiction denier? Maybe, or just a non believer. Scientia potentia est. One of the worst things you can do is stay ignorant. One of the best things you can do is learn for yourself. Get Educated.

    Staci links the porn addiction doubter to attacks on the "Me Too" movement. Uh, I don't know. I have, myself, never linked porn consumption to praying on women, in any way. There was my porn life, and there was real life, and while the first affected the other, sometimes negatively, I cannot say my consumption of porn ever led me to discriminate against a female or attempt to take advantage of one. So, if She who cannot be named did that, bad on her.

    Staci says Alexander has been forced to file a law suit. Again, Mommy and Daddy arguing, and I hate it. Anyone interested in browsing the pleadings, Google "Alexander Rhodes v. Liberos", and go to the third link down. from that, you can see who She who shall not be named is, but NEVER speak or write her name, or she will appear. And I cannot stress this enough: NEVER speak or write her name while you are PMOing, because she might spontaneously appear, and that would get kinky and weird and awkward, very fast. Like being caught jacking off by your mom...not that that has ever happened to me....ever, or even a few times. DON'T DO IT!

    From the complaint filed by Alexander Rhodes:

    26. Defendant [She who cannot be named]'s posts falsely allege, among other things, that Plaintiff Rhodes a. Threatened to stalk Defendant []. b. Cyberstalks Defendant [] and other women. c. Harasses Defendant []. d. Is subject to no-contact/restraining orders. e. Is misogynistic f .Promotes the “Proud Boys” and works with multiple members of the group

    27. Defendant [] has repeatedly claimed that she has reported Plaintiff Rhodes to the FBI for his alleged misconduct.

    28. Defendant []also accuses NoFap of being a hate group, that NoFap promotes discrimination against protected groups, that NoFap advertises multiple antisemitic groups, and that by visiting NoFap people are supporting misogyny and antisemitism.The accusations against both Plaintiff Rhodes and NoFap will herein be referred to as the “False Statements".

    Staci says the porn industry is trying to destroy NoFap. Honestly, I am not certain the porn industry cares about NoFap, or has agents out to destroy it. I just have not seen it. If every porn addict that exists quit watching porn tomorrow, I don't think the porn industry notices. They are making plenty of money serving porn up to people who watch it, consume it, but are not addicted to it, to make plenty of money. Most who watch porn are not addicted to it, in my humble opinion.

    Staci wants us to support Alexander, financially. For anyone reading this, I think we should. Throw some bucks at the guy. Staci claims the existence of the website is threatened. Not sure I believe that, but a website is not free to put up, it costs money, and Alexander is paying it, so, if you get anything from this site, please throw a few bucks at it. Let's go with $5.00/month.

    Staci says do not kill She who cannot be named, or contact her, or her legal team. Good advice.

    OK. So, we invented High Speed Internet, say 10 years ago. About a second later, we invented High Speed Internet Porn. A second later we invented High Speed Internet Porn Addiction, for a small percentage of the population.

    Alexander Rhodes is one of the bravest people I have ever known of. He recognized the problem all of us share, and he stepped out of the dark to own it. That took guts, that took balls. It is a real problem. Guts and Balls; make a plan to use both words in a sentence today, the SAME sentence. If you identify as a porn addict, better grow a sense of humor, too. Gallows humor.

    Now, let's get back to fixing the problem.

    Much love.

    Will I AM 1ANDDONE
    Dave G 123 likes this.
  16. Dave G 123

    Dave G 123 Fapstronaut

    Just made a donation. I just don't understand the motivation of "you know who" to do this - I literally can't understand it. She must be deeply broken.
  17. 1ANDDONE

    1ANDDONE Fapstronaut

    @Dave G 123

    Hi Dave, excellent about the donation. I am not affiliated with this site, but I do visit it often, and it was key in me quitting pathetic, chronic use of porn to get a dopamine high. I encourage anyone reading this to throw a few bucks down to help this site. It is here helping you, won't hurt for you to help it.

    I don't know "you know who's" motivation. I could presume it to be benign, meaning she really does not believe the science supports a conclusion that porn is addictive. It could be semantics. Porn actually is NOT addictive, it is the neurochemical reward we get from sexual thoughts that, occur naturally, and naturally are not addictive, but which can be hypersexualized by the use of an artificial sexual stimuli. Both produce a neurological reward, but the use of porn makes getting that reward about 10 times easier, makes the high 10 times higher, and allows the high to last 10 times longer (disclaimer, that is not science, just me making a point).

    That point about semantics is one I have been making quit a bit, recently, which is that with the development of better brain science, we may want to come up with more specific words to describe what is addictive. That is up to the scientists.

    The whole thing about getting donations is interesting to me. From what I can tell, Andrew Rhodes was given lemons, and has been trying to make lemonade ever since he got that sour taste in his mouth. NoFap has a headquarters, in Pittsburg. It's a real place, with a real purpose. Regardless of "you know who's" science, anyone who has had the problem knows it is a problem. I am not married to the idea it has to be called "porn addiction", but I do know that once you train your brain to get that neurological reward, which some on the planet say is "the best feeling that it is possible to get", the brain comes to expect it. That is when the addiction begins to form, because when the brain comes to expect it, but does not get it, the brain gets angry, and an angry brain can punish us for not feeding it its candy. Those are withdrawals. There is a large segment of the planet who can pick porn up, play with it, and put it down without withdrawals. Mother Bitches!

    I don't know what the future of what we call porn addiction is. It is not recognized as an actual diagnosis by the majority of the psychological field. Some are beginning to study, some are beginning to realize that we are not just one fucked 18 year old, sitting in a room, making up screen names, over, and over, and over, complaining about how he has really, really tried to quit watching XYZ porn, but JUST CAN'T. It would take at least 20 fucked up 18 year olds, making up screen names, to fake the number of posts that get posted on this site. The problem non addicts have with addicts is the JUST CAN'T SYOP thing. They don't understand it, and sometimes it pisses them off. Gambling for me--nothing, does absolutely nothing; I receive no thrill from it at all. I dislike gambling, I associate it unpleasant things, like 100's of grandmothers sitting on a stool in front of a slot machine, with a bucket full of nickels, and a mixed drink, popping them in one at a time. That thought bores, and I hate the smell of cigarette smoke. HOWEVER, if you're a person who just popped in here to take a look at the porn addicts freaks, I may have just triggered you. Maybe that whole fucking scene just turns you on and turns you out. I don't get it, but for a gambling addict, it's real.

    Oh, on the topic of JUST CAN'T STOP, I am going to get real for a second: BULLLLLLLSHIIIIITTTT!!!!! There is nothing life sustaining about watching porn. Before you started watching it you lived just fine with the neurological rewards life gave you. Not only will you have to stop to get clean, you are going to have to do something that is more fucking difficult than anything you may have done: You are going to have to live without those super heightened dopamine highs you have been giving yourself via PMO. Don't worry, on the other side there are other enjoyable things, like candy bars and sex.

    I think a lot of people watch porn, a lot of the time, but are not addicts. They don't understand the concept of porn addiction because we have, for about 70 years, give or take, been pushing the concept of "healthy sexuality," that, owing to porn, is actually hypersexualized. I think healthy sexuality is real, but think the mass production of porn does not reflect healthy sexuality, but, being mass produced, results in many thinking healthy sexuality is like the sex they see in porn. Humanity uses sex to sell EVERYTHING because seeing its representation, that little dopamine button gets pushed, and we are fascinated with what it is that results in that. A dopamine high is about loving (as in really, really liking, not romantic love), wanting, seeking, getting. We feel it with sex, we feel it with food, and we use artificial stimulations to generate it in other ways. Same with the gambling addict: loving/wanting/seeking/getting. Interestingly enough, the gambling addiction studies do not show the gambler has to win to get it, just seeking the win gets them high. It is almost the identical neurological reward some of us can use porn to get.

    So, I think ultimately porn addiction goes away. It probably goes away before the DSM recognizes it as a diagnosis. It probably goes away before mainstream scientists come up with a treatment. Hint: Their is no treatment. Abstaining is the cure, and that translates to consciously altering your brain's reward pathways to something like a no porn state. I used to say "preporn" state, but there are so few people who experienced porn before the invention of High Speed Internet Porn, that few have a preporn state to return to.

    I know you are thinking how optimistic I am in predicting porn addiction goes away. I am not. We invent all our addictions, porn is no different. I just think we will invent an invention that makes getting our high, as some of us do via porn and PMO, that is far more efficient. Just as porn is more efficient at getting it than actual sex, the porn replacement will be more efficient than porn. What could be more interesting than porn? Direct electrical stimulation of the brain. I can see a future where people will choose to have implants placed in their brain and are attached to a button just under the palm, in which pushing the button results in a neurological reward that is achieved in a manner far more efficient than porn. They will probably call it "pain relief", but some are going to love pushing that button almost as much as anything in their lives.

    OK, this is where I give my slave talk, which the boys seem to really like. If you are a porn addict, you are a slave. You wanna be a slave your life? You want to be fucked up to the point where you cannot have social relationships, where you have to plan a time, every day, first thing in the morning to find a place to PMO? You want to develop side effect, like not being able to get hard, not being able to cum during sex? Picture yourself in a nursing home, in that crowded place, sharing a room with some old man or woman, with your lap top, trying to figure out how to have some privacy, so you can engage in your life long habit.

    You have to want to quit more than you want to use. That mentality must exist, or you will fail. You cannot quit passively, you must quit proactively. You must want the pain, you gotta learn to love withdrawals. I am one clever asshole. Smiley face emodicon.

    For those interested, as opposed to hanging around here hoping someone will A) talk you into it, or B) tell you how to do it easy, here is a primer:

    Much love.

    Billy 1ANDDONE
    Psalm27:1my light likes this.
  18. Ace4321

    Ace4321 Fapstronaut

    DSM has been officially thrown out the window. It has an agenda and is not considered the bible anymore.

    So yes P addiction is real.

    Fuck the DSM.
  19. 1ANDDONE

    1ANDDONE Fapstronaut


    We are early days studying ourselves. Yes, you are right. For some the DSM was the bible, or is, but it should not be. We need to throw out everything before the conception of neuropsychology. We need to throw out a lot since then, too. Turns out all life is about stimulation (trigger), and reaction (reward). Sure, we have some leeway; let's call it sentiment. But, basically, we react to our environment, and "our environment" is what we perceive. PMO is a tool (trigger) that leads to a reaction (reward). It is hardly tragic, but KNOWING what it is, is helpful, if quitting using that to achieve the reward is one's goal.

    Much love.


    PS: I like the whole "Fuck the DSM" thing. Smileyface emodicon. Quitting porn took anger for me. It hurt, and I had to hate it. Hating it just made it easier to quit. Quitting porn is not am amicable breakup. You have to hate it to be most successful in quitting it. You cannot stay friends with it, and quit it. Anyone reading this, who is trying to quit it, but stay friends with it, you will fail, until you choose to defriend it. Not judging, just judging.

    Ace4321 likes this.
  20. 1ANDDONE

    1ANDDONE Fapstronaut


    Hi Skate, I am going to hijack your post. You said:

    I am just wondering how damaging these images of attractive women on social media are?

    The other day I ended up on this social media page that was a page of all these young attractive women from the uk. They were all completely beautiful. But I was very triggered by this. It actually lead me to masturbating going on one image after the other and I was imagining all these sexual scenarios in my head. But I did ejaculate quite quickly, like within 5 minutes.

    I'm not sure if it was simply because the women in these images were completely stunning, or if it was the novelty aspect that was turning me on so much, or both? Like what I was thinking is surely if one of these women was in front of me in real life wanting to do these sexual acts I was imagining then I would be just as turned on from that. But it is difficult to tell.

    It was crazy how I was triggered the other day. I seen one image of this complete hottie and I was turned on instantly and began clicking through loads of the images on that social media page.

    My friend who actually has a girlfriend and gets laid regularly was actually flicking through loads of images of hotties on social media on his phone one time when I was with him, and I mentioned to him about issues with porn and all this stuff, and he held the phone up to me showing me the images and said any guy that doesn't think that's hot must be gay.

    But I just don't understand how someone like my friend who gets laid regularly who clearly has no problem having sex, but yet he also looks through all these images of these hotties on social media and also masturbates to them.

    In a place like this, it is easy to presume everyone, as in all human beings, trigger the same way we do, with P. The reality: most don't. Another reality: This, High Speed Internet Porn, is a relatively new phenomenon, and, I think, is a problem that may be radically reduced, as a problem, with education. You would do best to think of P as a tool you can use to achieve a brain response, because that is all it is. Humanity is hard wired to "like" sex. By this I mean, at right about puberty, whether we want to or not (and a lot of us don't want to), our brains kick in what some have called "the sex drive." We think about sex, a lot, at a certain age, whether we want to, or not. That is nature's evolved way of encouraging about the only thing nature cares about in any species; reproduction. It's always been awkward, it's OK. But, about around 2010, we invented and widely disseminated High Speed Internet Porn. For a small percentage of the population, that is really fascinating. Translation, it is a means, for a small percentage, to chase a dopamine high, to the point of addiction. Understand, you get a dopamine rush from merely thinking about sex. Everyone does. HSIP allows for endless thoughts about novel sexual situations, meaning an endless, profound, dopamine high. What you really like is not P, it is that high. Be self aware.

    But, as for social media, whether you call it porn or porn substitutes, we, humanity, are going to have to learn to live with it. It is here to stay. Advertisers, whether they say it in these terms, or not, have known for a long time that sex sells. Slap a bikini model on the side of a barn, and people will have interest in buying the barn. As a species our brains reward sexual thoughts, with a dopamine rush; that is a naturally occurring event. But, especially since the invention of the internet, we have learned to use sexual imagery as a sales and promotional tool. We used it before, of course, but the internet makes it endlessly available. The product the porn industry sells is a dopamine high. Don't blame them, they are selling us something we like, and a lot of people can purchase that product and not become addicted to it

    A lot of people here really struggle with what we call porn addition, and are very depressed and anxious over it. I know I did too, once, but that was a long time ago, and even then I had to have a sense of humor to get over it.

    Skate, overcoming the problem is about exercise, and patterns. When I say "exercise" I mean consciously not using porn or artificial sexual stuimulation to achieve a dopamine high. Your friend does not have the problem, and so, does not understand or accept the problem is real. He is in the majority of the population; you, and I, are in the minority. For us, porn is not a toy that can be picked up and put down casually. Most people can do that; we cannot. But, you can train your brain to live without it, "it" being that dopamine high you get from porn. Don't be afraid to have s sense of humor with it though. HSIP is not going away. Social media, with artificial sexual stimulation, is here to stay. Just be self aware. It is OK to embrace the ridiculousness of the situation, but don't let it become tragic; it is not. You, and I, and everyone else here, are just clever monkeys who figured how to push a button to achieve a neurological reward that we really, really, like. Just recognize that; it is no tragedy, but, just understand where you are now, and where you want to be, in the future, and take steps to get there. You trained your brain to expect that neurological reward, using P, and you did not even know you were training it to achieve that. No one gets up one morning and says: Today, I am going to immerse myself in PMO, for years, so I can become addicted to it. P addiction is done unconsciously, and in ignorance. The solution: quit using P, and train your brain to be balanced without it. That takes time, effort, and is going to hurt. Just know, the pain diminishes, then goes away. What I am telling you is, you are going to have to live in a world that hypersexualizes everything, because hypersexualizing anything draws attention to it, and people have figured out, if you want to get the attention of people, for anything, hypersexualize it, and you get some people's attention. This is the reality we all live in. It does not mean you have to be slave to it. Get Educated.

    Much love.


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