What if you actually never looked at porn?

I only reset my counter if I masturbate to porn or artificial stimulation. The reason why I always say artificial stimulation is because it's all porn. But some people don't realise that. Like some guys think if they masturbate to social media images of hotties then they're not masturbating to porn. The exact same thing is happening in the brain, and it is the exact same behaviour, so it is all porn.

I do still sometimes masturbate without searching or looking at anything artificial, and I don't reset my counter for this. But I do try to keep my fantasises as realistic as possible.

Since I have cut porn out of my life for the most part though I find that I hardly ever want to masturbate. I feel like my libido has returned to a normal level. Where as before I was wanting to jack off to porn constantly. But I don't think this was my true libido. Where as now I usually only ever end up masturbating when I am really horny. It's like I am so horny I am just slightly touching my dick and I am basically ejaculating.

 

It depends what you count as a relapse. I only count masturbating to porn or artificial stimulation as a relapse. So If I masturbate and ejaculate without those then I don't count that as a relapse.

But some guys even count just masturbating on it's own as a relapse. Some guys count ejaculating even with a woman as a relapse.

It really depends what you count as a relapse.

 

Ok. Working on my first cup of coffee, but here goes. Excellent question, OP, excellent answer Skate. @onceaking @skaterdrew

Skate says it is no relapse to MO without P. I think that is probably true, especially if you have reset your brain, or quit PMO, for a while. Our problem is, though, that, due to memory, it is hard to "forget" P. So, if you use memory of P while MOing, is that a relapse? Probably, that gets into the question of what is artificial sexual stimulation, and is thought, alone, artificial sexual stimulation?

I think it is entirely possible to imagine relapsing. In fact, during what we call a reboot, I think imagining relapsing almost always happens. What is "imagining a relapse"? Just thinking about it, I suppose, and during a reboot, I think most of us think about it A LOT.
Our reality is that our brains want us thinking about sex. That is nature's evolved way of encouraging us to do the thing most important to nature: reproduce. As our brains evolved, nature figured out that thinking about sex, leads to sex, and sex leads to babies, so, we get a dopamine reward for thinking about sex, and a brain explosion of that and endogenous opioids with O, with sex, or just MO. A few years ago we (humans) figured out a way that some of us could use P to short cut the entire process to get the reward without actually having sex. High Speed Internet Porn. Pretty clever we are. We could do that before HSIP, but HSIP made it incredibly efficient.

We like a dopamine high, whether we want to, or not. Many here don't want it, but there is no way to turn it off. Don't beat yourself up too much for experiencing a dopamine high, nature wants you to. What is key is being self aware, knowing yourself. You, I, and everyone else are stuck with the hardwiring of our brains. It is not going away. Learning you can alter the hard wiring by porn is key. For a certain segment of the population, porn can be used to spike a dopamine high to the point of addiction. What is interesting to me, or is becoming more so, is why that is not true for ALL of us. The majority of the population likes porn, but is not addicted to it, and can casually pick it up and put it down. For some of us, it is much more fascinating.

Getting a dopamine high and endogenous opioid rush from thinking of sex, or having it, and reaching O, is a hardwired reality for humans. Skate says he is in control of that, without use of P. Let's be real, we, humanity, were rubbing one off a long time before we invented High Speed Internet Porn, and the phrase "porn addiction" did not come into existence until after we invented HSIP. From these facts what conclusion can we draw? Rubbing one off is not, necessarily, addictive; HSIP can lead to addiction. Don't beat yourself up for thinking about sex, the brain encourages it. Just be self aware.

 

Relapse is defined as going back to previous behavior pattern over a period of time.
This means if you did something daily then made an effort to stop use, for lets say a month, then after one month of no use you went back to using daily for a week or two, at that point it would constitute a relapse.

For some reason in this community "relapse" somehow means any type of use. While in reality it means going back to previous level of use after attempt to stop.

 

@Ronila I agree. The term relapse is used here quite often, too often, as looking at porn after deciding not to. This translates to using porn to get a dopamine high, after determining not to, though a lot of people do not conceive of it as that, which is sad, because thinking of that, literally, is helpful in quitting. One has to understand what one is quitting to be most successful in quitting. Here, I see a lot of guys/women claiming to relapse after a day or two. In fact, they are not relapsing, they are just continuing to use, but a bit less, and failing in their attempt to quit. I am not sure relapse happens. We are hardwired to get a dopamine rush from thinking of sex, and we are hard wired to think of sex. We are not hard wired to use porn to think of sex, but, when it comes to thinking of sex, porn is the most efficient tool we have to think of it, and get the accompanying dopamine high. Whether you watch porn, or not, your brain is hard wired to 1) think of sex, and 2) receive a neurological dopamine reward for it. In truth, a lot of us would love to be able to turn that off, but we cannot. Knowing our neurology, understanding it, dealing with it, is key.

 

I think we disagree on the definition of relapse.

 

As you said we are hard wired to think about sex, because of this we get a reward (high dopamine). The problem in my opinion is that some people want more, and the easiest way to get high dopamine is porn. The question is how to deal with it ? Replace porn with something else ! Get married or masturbate or what ? !!! I agree with you about the definition of relapse. But I believe that what matters the most is to keep trying, and avoid Porn completely.

 

@MHero

One of the jedi mind tricks of quitting is understanding that to live without the high, you have to give up the high. The addict's dream is to find something healthy to replace the high with, but that overlooks the fact that the high, itself, is not healthy, not normal, and does not, naturally, occur, in nature. We get a dopamine rush, naturally, in response to evolved triggers. It has to do with liking (you may interpret this as loving), wanting, seeking, getting. We talk about "porn addiction", but that is inexact. What we are addicted to is a brain reward. Porn is a super stimuli; so, getting clean is not about replacing a super stimuli with another super stimuli, it is about living with, just, the stimuli our brain has evolved to reward, which, in this case, is, essentially, having sex, thinking about sex, flirting, sealing the deal. The high you get from that will not be as high as the high you get from porn, but you will get a high.

 

@1ANDDONE I agree replacing porn with an other super-stimuli, will be the same as using porn, because it's beyond the normal. So the solution is to resist the urges, untill my brain adapt with the normal levels of dopamine again. This process will take time
That makes the continuous small-relapses (not really a relapse) normal.
I think that it's work. I'm in 15 days now, but I didn't experience any seriouce urges ! Maybe my brain start reverting back to normal !
Yesterday I masturbated will I'm semi-asleep, I don't know if that count as high !?
I didn't reset my counter because I feel like I didn't relapse . I think if I reset my counter I may watch P. Any way I wanted to share that with you.

 

@MHero

Thanks for sharing. You did not relapse.

We are wired to get that "high", it is just that we have figured out how to get it via High Speed Internet Porn. Even that is not "good" or "bad", it's just that we figured out a way to short circuit our brain's reward neurology. By we I mean that percentage of humanity that is susceptible to becoming addicted to it. "Rebooting" is training our brains back to a pre porn place. That is especially difficult for people who never existed in a pre porn place. There are a group of older people, soon to be gone, who actually existed in a world before HSIP. You are not one of them. You are young enough that one of your first internet experiences was HSIP. Sorry to say, that makes rebooting for you more difficult. In fact, the word "rebooting" does not, actually, express what persons of your age have to do. Rebooting implies "going back". You are not attempting to go back, you are attempting to rewire your brain neurology to live without a super stimulation you have always experienced. It is going to be OK. It is going to hurt, A LOT, but you can give up that super stimulation, and your brain will eventually level out and not miss it, with time. I took a year. I advise at least 90 days. That is when you know you are in control. One day, in your future, you will wake up and not miss it. Like I did, today. Your brain is hard wired to like/love, want, seek, get sex, and food, too, and friendship, and family, and a lot of other very good things. When we invented HSIP, we invented a way of getting those good feeling, that high, in a very powerful way, that serves no positive end, and which can be addictive. That is OK, that is life, that is our reality. Just know yourself, take time to know yourself. And own yourself, control yourself. Take a deep breath. You are just a human being, like every one else walking this world. Push on to 90. The purpose of the hard 90 is to reset your brain's expectations, to set its expectations to not getting a dopamine high from artificial sexual stimulation, daily. Once the brain expects normal, then normal it is. Be patient, be strong. This is practice, this is training, this is exercise. Won't be perfect, but know what you are doing, be self aware. Don't beat your self up for just being human, because, that is exactly what you are. Me too, everyone else here, ditto.

Much love.

Will I AM.

 

Thank's for your kind words and advices. You motivated me to continue this road. I will be there with you all in a world where we are happy for real without shame and guilty feelings, where we will be the best version of our self's.
Much love for all of you too
Stay strong.

 

@MHero

The main thing is knowing yourself. Knowing why you like what you like, want what you want, seek what you seek.

It's all a brain thing.

Once that is understood, what can seem like an epic problem, is reduced to something the size of daily hygiene. When you have succeeded in this, not watching porn, not PMOing, not using that trigger as a way of getting a brain high, will become like brushing your teeth. It will just become something you get up and do, as in not do, everyday. It will become your daily pattern. Quitting porn is about changing patterns. It is also learning to live with normal, and reduced, levels of dopamine and endogenous opioids. Yep, we are a bunch of screwed up monkeys, but we are all in it together. You are not alone.

Will I AM.

 

I wonder how many of us do arithmetic when we need to figure out a number rather than use the calc on the phone. Of course not, that would be idiotic. Jumping to porn is a reflex we develop because of its easy availability. We wouldn’t cross a desert to do it, but it’s there, right at hand, and we have trained ourselves, convinced ourselves through years of use that we need it. We don’t though. But as a consequence we have forgotten how to do arithmetic. It seems to me at this early stage (50 days w/out porn, fapped twice so far) that demanding of ourselves that we never masturbate occasionally (as opposed to doing it obsessively and constantly) as a condition of declaring ourselves “recovered” is a thoroughly unreasonable demand. Humans masturbate, and that doesn’t have to be problematic if done only occasionally and without porn. I can’t at this stage agree with those here who say any masturbation is a relapse- it’s the urge, porn, masturbation, desensitization and escalation cycle that brought us here. If we state as a condition of recovery that we never feel unavoidable urges again, we will all fail. This isn’t AA, where the ethos is “never touch a drink again” ( which may be a reason why AA doesn’t work for everyone either). I am here because I want to bring the healthy processing of sexual urges back into my life, not get rid of those urges altogether.

 

I agree this exactly what I believe. It's impossible to not masturbate even once for 90 days or more, at least in my case. I don't think that masturbation is the problem, it's all about porn. Masturbation is a natural act, porn is not.

 

This is exactly what I believe. It's impossible to not masturbate for 90 days, at least for me. The act of masturbation is natural, will porn is not. I'm here to be free from porn usage not masturbation.