Do you value truth over feeling ?

[Deleted Account]

Forgiven without feelings of remorse—-What does a emotionless person use in absence of feeling “sorrowful”?

The sacraments. Objective truth more or less. Thats why feelings are probably a bad indicator. I can understand your frustrations because when you are told you faith depends on how you feel rather then what you think or believe then it can be unnerving when those feelings arent there.

In the creeds I dont remember reading a section about "feeling" any one way or another though.

 

[Deleted Account]

I think faith and feelings can be seperate

Definitely. Faith should not be watered down into being synonymous with "feeling." I have full faith that God knows what's best for me, but I don't always feel that way.

 

[need4realchg]

The sacraments. Objective truth more or less. Thats why feelings are probably a bad indicator. I can understand your frustrations because when you are told you faith depends on how you feel rather then what you think or believe then it can be unnerving when those feelings arent there.

In the creeds I dont remember reading a section about "feeling" any one way or another though.

I don’t really know what “the sacraments” means in a literal sense. I understand it from a liturgical sense. For example the bread, wine (grape juice) and foot washing ? The instructions given in order to do these was that first “you leave your gift at the altar and make amends with your brother”, the serving attitude that Christ showed by disrobing also prefaces the taking of sacraments. Then that damning verse that says if you take the sacraments without being worthy of them they are damnation to you.... I would need to look that one up. That was true in the case of Judas —the sacraments did not become a magic trick...they led to his damnation.

But you make a great point since peter did not want to be washed, then claimed he wanted to washed from head to toe—- his pride was required to be sacrificed and obviously his feelings did not align with his faith.

The truth (Christ) literally asked for him to walk in faith ignoring (or denying) his feelings. Once he does that he is good.

The time peter is afraid but obeys Christ’s Instructions he walks on water... again feelings not needed for miracle.

I’m not trying to make this Christian-only; I concur supposing truth is universal like @Castielle points out. Because it’s universal , what is good for the goose should be good for the gander.

It just seems like truth requires obedience , not feelings.

 

[Tao Jones]

It just seems like truth requires obedience , not feelings.

Nailed it.

 

[need4realchg]

Nailed it.

I don’t mean to sound bitter or snippity... but this is the source of my frustration... why do I have feelings if the whole duty of righteous man is to ignore them?

Ugh. Heeding feelings led me to lots of pmo. But to combat those feelings I changed lots of habits and fixed the outside. But inside I can’t change feelings its just repression—which causes more problems.

Whats the solution?

 

[Tao Jones]

I don’t mean to sound bitter or snippity... but this is the source of my frustration... why do I have feelings if the whole duty of righteous man is to ignore them?

Ugh. Heeding feelings led me to lots of pmo. But to combat it I just did a bunch of repression—which causes more problems.

Whats the solution?

A quote from Lewis's "That Hideous Strength" comes to mind:

"You do not fail in obedience through lack of love, but you have lost love because you never attempted obedience."

As was mentioned earlier, if you want to know peace inwardly, your feelings must come in alignment with the Truth, not the other way around. They get this way through the practice of obedience, regardless of how you feel. In time, your feelings will be transformed, and then the hard discipline of self-denial becomes the easy thing, because it is truly what you desire to do.

You believe that your feelings will never change and will always be in conflict with what is right. This is not true. If you willingly sacrifice those feelings -- trading in your tired, worn out notions for the true ones from Christ which are undying and incorruptible -- they will be returned to you much improved. This is the "Great Exchange" of the Kingdom. It's simply the way it works.

We get into trouble when we do not want to give up our feelings. Like a petulant child, we cling to them because we do not trust there is anything better. Lewis is again helpful (from "Weight of Glory"):

“It would seem that Our Lord finds our desires not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.”

As for why your feelings are in the state they are currently -- well, that is where the whole notion of sin and the fallen state of the world comes in. A topic for another time, perhaps.

 

[need4realchg]

A quote from Lewis's "That Hideous Strength" comes to mind:

"You do not fail in obedience through lack of love, but you have lost love because you never attempted obedience."

As was mentioned earlier, if you want to know peace inwardly, your feelings must come in alignment with the Truth, not the other way around. They get this way through the practice of obedience, regardless of how you feel. In time, your feelings will be transformed, and then the hard discipline of self-denial becomes the easy thing, because it is truly what you desire to do.

You believe that your feelings will never change and will always be in conflict with what is right. This is not true. If you willingly sacrifice those feelings -- trading in your tired, worn out notions for the true ones from Christ which are undying and incorruptible -- they will be returned to you much improved. This is the "Great Exchange" of the Kingdom. It's simply the way it works.

We get into trouble when we do not want to give up our feelings. Like a petulant child, we cling to them because we do not trust there is anything better. Lewis is again helpful (from "Weight of Glory"):

“It would seem that Our Lord finds our desires not too strong, but too weak. We are half-hearted creatures, fooling about with drink and sex and ambition when infinite joy is offered us, like an ignorant child who wants to go on making mud pies in a slum because he cannot imagine what is meant by the offer of a holiday at the sea. We are far too easily pleased.”

As for why your feelings are in the state they are currently -- well, that is where the whole notion of sin and the fallen state of the world comes in. A topic for another time, perhaps.

Beautifully written here. I have Recently accepted the petulant child-characteristic I have. Yes. Writing about it a lot presently. You are right.

Feelings are like stubborn horses more than wayward cats. I have not ever seen them align to my will so naturally I struggle to accept it but you are making a strong point.

 

[NewGeorge]

NO

 

[Hros]

I’m not trying to make this Christian-only; I concur supposing truth is universal like @Castielle points out. Because it’s universal , what is good for the goose should be good for the gander.

But isn't that what religion is all about? That each religion claims only it knows the full truth (others may have part of the truth, but only part).

 

[need4realchg]

But isn't that what religion is all about? That each religion claims only it knows the full truth (others may have part of the truth, but only part).

Well qualifying how much “truth” a person knows easily becomes a pride contest... a good but different question.

I’m saying whatever percentage of truth you have, How do you respond?

Another way of asking would be — “can you admit how rebellious you are when you choose feelings over truth?”

 

[Tao Jones]

I am not sure if this is relevant, but one point of clarification: In Christianity, the Truth is not a set of facts or principles. It is a person. So, we know the Truth when we know Jesus. We grow in that relationship, just as we do in all relationships. But it's odd to talk about "full truth" or "partial truth" or "percentage of truth." You don't say that you only know a percentage of your friend or your brother or your spouse. You just say that you know them. You may not know them well, you may not want to know them any better, or you may want to get to know them more in time. But knowing them is an either/or condition. It is the same with Truth in the Christian understanding of reality.

So, better stated, the quandary of "Do you value truth over feelings?" should read: "Do you value Jesus over self?" That's really what we are discussing here, and that is what it always boils down to: His way or our way. It is our choice which we will take.

 

[Deleted Account]

But isn't that what religion is all about? That each religion claims only it knows the full truth (others may have part of the truth, but only part).

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make with this. Sure, most religions claim they are the one and only truth. But that doesnt change what actual truth is.

For example, if Christianity is true, then those other religions are not true. If Christianity is not true, then either one of those other religions might be truth, or they might all be false. Truth remains the same, regardless of whether or not anyone believes in it.

 

[onceaking]

Good book

Not good book.

I've read two of his books and I'm trying to think If I learnt anything positive from it... The only good thing I got was that it's important to communicate in a relationship but everything else I remember was terrible. My hot take from his books was: Don't date and if you happen to date make sure you don't break up because if you break up your they will haunt you for the of your life. You could never truly love the person you marry if you have an ex because you gave your ex a bit of your heart. This made me scared of dating so I didn't date until my 30's. In fact, I think that's one reason I started looking at porn. Nothing was said about porn stars haunting you, it was just ex-girlfriends so I felt porn was better. Of course, the book doesn't encourage people to watch porn but I figured out watching porn was safer. It wasn't until my 30's that I got a girlfriend and I was scared we would break up. The beginning of the relationship was great but she wasn't happy with things after about 6 or 7 months and wanted to end things. That freaked me out because I simply couldn't have an ex-girlfriend. I persuaded her to not end things and she agreed but neither of us was happy. She didn't feel all that happy with being in a relationship with me and I felt unhappy because she wasn't happy. In the end, I ended the relationship. I couldn't cope with it anymore. But then I began hating her and wish I had never met her. I believed she was going to haunt me for the rest of my life. Then I began hating myself for being stupid enough to get in the relationship in the first place. I now reject that message of the book on one level but that message was drilled into me as a teenager so a part of me believes that it's true. I now have a complicated relationship with dating, romance and sex. Sometimes I think it's a good thing and sometimes it makes me mad.

I don't think it's just Joshua Harris. Family members believed in this purity thing and told me I shouldn't date and that I shouldn't kiss a girl until I get married. But Joshua Harris had the biggest influence over me. I'm not saying it's just evangelical purity culture that causes me to hate dating, romance and sex but I think it plays a big part. Watch the Joshua Harris documentary was a revelation because there were people who read the book and as a result became traumatised because they didn't marry the first person they dated. So yeah, not a good book!

The problem is I’d still tell my son:. Read this and do it/-. But neither I or the author still believe it. Now what?? What should I say ?

If he's read the book(s) there's nothing you can say - the damage has already been done. I will acknowledge not everyone was affected in such a negative way. Just hope and pray what he read it isn't traumatising him.

 

[Breadman]

Yeah.

I get what you mean. He was extreme. And I mean that in a good way. I am always asking myself is the extreme/minority right and all the rest/majority who go down the “wide path” are wrong?

@Max Fisher i know you have written before on the perfectionist perspective on being perfect for our kids even when we don’t feel like we are perfect ourselves. I’d appreciate your feedback here. Do I act on truth or feelings?

For those who don’t know : Josh Harris was a guy who decided to not kiss girls until he met his fiancé, he argued the first kiss should be for his wife. It’s a very strong argument and it appeals to those fundamental-Christian believers. I used to consider myself in that category.

The problem is I’d still tell my son:. Read this and do it/-. But neither me or the author still believe it. Now what?? What should I say ?

You say everyone is human and we all fail at perfection. It’s the nature of being.

 

[need4realchg]

Not good book.

I've read two of his books and I'm trying to think If I learnt anything positive from it... The only good thing I got was that it's important to communicate in a relationship but everything else I remember was terrible. My hot take from his books was: Don't date and if you happen to date make sure you don't break up because if you break up your they will haunt you for the of your life. You could never truly love the person you marry if you have an ex because you gave your ex a bit of your heart. This made me scared of dating so I didn't date until my 30's. In fact, I think that's one reason I started looking at porn. Nothing was said about porn stars haunting you, it was just ex-girlfriends so I felt porn was better. Of course, the book doesn't encourage people to watch porn but I figured out watching porn was safer. It wasn't until my 30's that I got a girlfriend and I was scared we would break up. The beginning of the relationship was great but she wasn't happy with things after about 6 or 7 months and wanted to end things. That freaked me out because I simply couldn't have an ex-girlfriend. I persuaded her to not end things and she agreed but neither of us was happy. She didn't feel all that happy with being in a relationship with me and I felt unhappy because she wasn't happy. In the end, I ended the relationship. I couldn't cope with it anymore. But then I began hating her and wish I had never met her. I believed she was going to haunt me for the rest of my life. Then I began hating myself for being stupid enough to get in the relationship in the first place. I now reject that message of the book on one level but that message was drilled into me as a teenager so a part of me believes that it's true. I now have a complicated relationship with dating, romance and sex. Sometimes I think it's a good thing and sometimes it makes me mad.

I don't think it's just Joshua Harris. Family members believed in this purity thing and told me I shouldn't date and that I shouldn't kiss a girl until I get married. But Joshua Harris had the biggest influence over me. I'm not saying it's just evangelical purity culture that causes me to hate dating, romance and sex but I think it plays a big part. Watch the Joshua Harris documentary was a revelation because there were people who read the book and as a result became traumatised because they didn't marry the first person they dated. So yeah, not a good book!



If he's read the book(s) there's nothing you can say - the damage has already been done. I will acknowledge not everyone was affected in such a negative way. Just hope and pray what he read it isn't traumatising him.

Wow. What an enlightening post. Yes my friend you get both my moral and parenting dilemma.

The only difference I see is you outright reject and live accordingly.

I don’t live accordingly but see the wisdom is the idealism.

It probably appeals to the perfectionist way I was designed by a perfect God; but I still struggle to “agree “ with the instruction-Manual.

 

[Deleted Account]

Not trying to go all preachy here —-

I look at pmo successes as denying my feelings to lust, to escape, to resist the emotional death-grip my fantasy has on my conscience.

If I don’t fight I will simply fall.
In fact , I’d say all relapses are feelings/emotions driven.

In the context of pmo we either choose truth or feelings. Right ?

To say doing this is “controlling our feelings” in then context of pmo would be like saying I do pmo in moderation. Not sure if you suggesting that, I know some do practice m in moderation. I am not in that camp.

When it comes to the passions, feelings, and emotions, yes, we must follow truth above them but we must also learn to align our feelings with the truth. We must love truth and detach from a love of what is untrue. That’s what we’re doing here, right? We’re learning to hate the slavery of PMO and trying to foster a love for the freedom of self-control! How else will recovery be sustainable if we do not align our feelings with this truth?

Lust is an inordinate attachment to sex like how gluttony is an inordinate attachment to food. When you do not give into lust, you are controlling it. Any lust is too much just like any gluttony is too much food. There is no such thing as gluttony in moderation nor Lust in moderation. Saying you can be uncontrollable in moderation or inordinately ordered is an oxymoron.

 

[need4realchg]

When it comes to the passions, feelings, and emotions, yes, we must follow truth above them but we must also learn to align our feelings with the truth. We must love truth and detach from a love of what is untrue. That’s what we’re doing here, right? We’re learning to hate the slavery of PMO and trying to foster a love for the freedom of self-control! How else will recovery be sustainable if we do not align our feelings with this truth?

Lust is an inordinate attachment to sex like how gluttony is an inordinate attachment to food. When you do not give into lust, you are controlling it. Any lust is too much just like any gluttony is too much food. There is no such thing as gluttony in moderation nor Lust in moderation. Saying you can be uncontrollable in moderation or inordinately ordered is an oxymoron.

I think you read my post too fast.
I don’t think you can “control your feelings”.

I don’t think you can have masturbation in moderation.

You have to accept that you have them, then divorce them on the grounds of infidelity to your expressed vow of truth.

 

[Deleted Account]

I think you read my post too fast.
I don’t think you can “control your feelings”.

I don’t think you can masturbation in moderation.

You have to accept that you have them, then divorce them on the grounds of infidelity to your expressed vow of truth.

Is was more responding to this

To say doing this is “controlling our feelings” in then context of pmo would be like saying I do pmo in moderation.

I know you personally didn’t view it this way but I wanted to clarify why I didn’t either.

I disagree that we cannot control our feelings. We absolutely can which is one of the reasons we’re held responsible for our actions. I personally feel controlling our feelings is knowing when our feelings cross from ordered desires to inordinate ones. Of course any feeling the deviates from the truth and the way in which that truth should be lived is when a feeling crosses from ordered to disordered.

 

[Tao Jones]

Just my opinion: We may not be able to control our feelings. I'm not sure. Sometimes I feel sad or angry and I have no idea why. It just comes out of nowhere, and it takes me some time to figure out what's up.

But we absolutely can control how we respond to our feelings, even if they take us by surprise. We can learn not to react without thinking. We can take the time we need to understand why we feel the way we do before we take any action. This is all part of the journey up out of addiction, I think. At least, this has been my experience.

 

[need4realchg]

Just my opinion: We may not be able to control our feelings. I'm not sure. Sometimes I feel sad or angry and I have no idea why. It just comes out of nowhere, and it takes me some time to figure out what's up.

But we absolutely can control how we respond to our feelings, even if they take us by surprise. We can learn not to react without thinking. We can take the time we need to understand why we feel the way we do before we take any action. This is all part of the journey up out of addiction, I think. At least, this has been my experience.

I’m going to use Tao as a shield. (Please don’t take offense)—-

I think he made the point.

What you feel—- you cannot control, how you respond to those feelings is within your control @Augie.