Dealing with partners porn addiction

I'm going to agree with @Psalm27:1my light .
If one is really serious about quitting PMO, he'll do whatever it takes, uncover every stone, search every path available. Go to meetings, get counseling, go to rehab, getting a sponsor, calling buddies, along with reading books and posting on a forum.

If what's being done is not working or stopped working, it's time to stop trying harder doing the same things over and over again, and time to start trying different.

If nothing changes, nothing changes.

If you keep doing what you've always done, you're always going to get what you've always got.

 

I told myself my whole life that it was just because I have a high libido. And that if my wife only wants sex once or twice a month and I want it multiple times a week it was a great compromise.

The problem is all the unnoticed side effects that build over time.

I'm thankful I figured this out in my 30s and not after a lifetime. Unfortunately not everyone does.

 

It does have some unfortunate effects on the personality/mind.

 

Please don't take this the wrong way. But if you want honesty some of it is going to hurt a little. There's two parts to this and I have lived this the last 9 years or so with my now wife. 1. If you want honest communication you have to be willing to hear it no matter what. 2. We need to practice saying it in a way that isn't insulting, passive aggressive, or rude. I think that takes practice, especially for a people pleaser who is bad at setting boundaries or expressing themselves. We can become very resentful and bitter because it's all bottled up and it comes out in a way we don't mean at terrible times.

I find that almost always if I feel one way and my wife does another, the truth is somewhere in the middle. He probably is wishing he didn't have to miss this meeting, it sounds like he really enjoys it. The other part is true that how he said it made you feel like the meeting is more important than you. Which is understandable. But the middle may be that even though he said he wishes he wouldn't miss the meeting, that he actually is willing to because he made these plans for the weekend with you.

I'm going on a limb here as I don't know the specifics but I'm assuming that since he made that plan for the weekend that he knew he would likely miss his meeting? Or had thoughts that maybe you could be back in time for this meeting? Compromise is necessary in a relationship. It seems what he's done is expressed that even though he made the trip plans he hates to miss the meeting because it's important to him. He just said it in a crappy way. I suggest trying to be understanding of what he's trying to express there. It seems like something he looks forward to all week. Someone struggling with addiction recovery needs more things to look forward to not less.

I know a people pleaser struggles with setting boundaries and often can overcorrect once they start trying to express themselves and stand up for their needs. It's so hard for us at first that it gets us wound up so tight that we say things like you're bf did. With practice that can get better. Maybe these communication issues are not going to be great at first, but if it takes 20 tries to get it right the next 10,000 then its worth it.

So if I understand you correctly, you're saying that he is going on Thursday because he will miss Sundays meeting? What are your thoughts there? Is it the ex or just that he is going to a meeting with the ex without your consent? Is it the meeting in general? What do you think it is that makes you feel that you aren't being heard?

I'm really sorry that you are hurting. Thinking and praying for clarity for you.

 

Thanks for the reminder, yes I had forgotten about the two year thing, also I'm picking up that maybe his ex only goes on Thursdays and that was somewhat of an agreement that you had with him? That you felt better about him attending on Sundays because of the ex?

It makes sense to me how you'd feel then, and I still think that it can mean nothing, I know because I've been there, I haven't thought about something just like that many times and my wife made it a HUGE deal. But I think only you can be the judge of that, and repetitiveness isn't a good sign. Sounds like a opportunity to communicate about the boundary again, and continue to hope for improvement there. Only you can decide when a boundary has been crossed more than you can take.

I feel I have been on both sides of your situation, I've been a very jealous person, and I've also been a person who was controlled by a jealous person. It sucks all around, its like a poison. I'm sure there's this extra dynamic on top of that is the Betrayal Trauma that you are experiencing that I can't offer any help with.

I can say though from my experience, when my partners in my life were jealous and controlling, it drove me away from them, and when I was jealous and controlling I drove them away from me.

On the surface from the outside looking in the meetings/ex issue seems much less important than the PMO addiction probably. It seems your BF has good intentions on the meetings, and still struggles with expressing his needs and wants well. I don't know how long it takes to fix that as I'm still working on it myself currently. And it just takes a long time to be good at it.

I don't blame you one bit though from feeling like you are being lied to and that something fishy is going on. Like @hope4healing has said before probably the best bet if you are going to see things through is to sit back and observe.

I'm sorry this is hard, and it doesn't always feel like it, but good things can happen no matter what, keep your head up!

 

It sounds like you are saying, correct me if I am wrong, that him attending the meeting on that day is a trauma trigger for you. It also is a source of him withholding information which is effectively lying to you.

He might want to read the book Worthy of Her Trust by Stephen Aterburn & Jason Martin. There is a lot in there about lying and withholding information, how it is damaging to the partner. This quote says a lot, "If you withhold information, you lie. Let me say that a different way: when you choose not to disclose pertinent information, you aren’t telling the truth."(p. 65).

My husband danced around withholding information for years. Sometimes intentionally so and sometimes not. It has done immeasurable damage to our marriage. It made me not feel like his person, his wife, that he could just not tell me so many things in his life or even just his day. Even now that we are in a good place and he no longer does it, he'll say something that happened in the past, usually related to work or a work trip, and it will be something I have never heard before. I'll point it out, and he'll be like of course I told you that, and I'm like nope. Zero. It always hits him hard to see how much of an asshole he was to me.

The biggest thing I've learned in all of this is that if it is something big that matters, I have to set clear boundaries with direct actions if he chooses to do it anyway. Remember a boundary is not about controlling the other person, it's about protecting yourself. The actions are what YOU will do to protect yourself emotionally. I'll give you an example of where I failed to set a clear boundary over something that matters to me. My husband was never unfaithful in real life, but he was friendlier with women at his work than I am comfortable with AND he withheld information that it was even happening (things like mentoring women, walking around with them as a result in town, getting coffee with them, etc). As a result women at his work trigger me. I've seen how hug happy they are at his work, so I said I was not comfortable with him hugging a woman who was not me, his mother or his sister or another female relative of ours. He seemed to understand. Welp, he went to a work function he had to attend, this was just after his work finally forced people back to the office so we hadn't had to deal with it earlier. He was a complete moron. A woman on one of his teams, whom I have met, asked him if she could hug him and he freaking said yes! He knew he screwed up, he came right home and told me. I requested he contact her and make it clear that he wasn't really okay with it. But it was a lesson to me. NOW I have a clear boundary in place. If he has physical contact with a woman other than me or those we are related to, I will no longer feel emotionally safe enough to have physical contact with him and will ask for space until I feel safe again. He is of course free to do whatever he wants. But I don't have to endure any more trauma from his thoughtless actions.

Sorry that was long and winded. I just wanted to share how I have had to really think about the places I need boundaries for my emotional health. I can't heal if I'm taking hits left and right, even if they are things that don't seem painful to him. Unfortunately trauma creates triggers and anything that's related in time or space is game to be an issue. Anything unknown that should be, is an issue.

 

So I struggle with boundaries, but I definitely agree with your explanation of what a healthy boundary is. For @YourLocalClown I feel torn as if it's ok to demand he cannot attend a certain event. But that it is ok to expect very specific behaviors and interactions to be off limits. Like the hugging you expressed and the with holding of information.

I've been on the other side of boundaries that became very controlling, it got to the point where I was ostracized from many friends. I complied. Until I found out my wife wasn't adhering to the same boundaries herself I thought I was doing the right thing. After that I've felt manipulated and controlled and have had a very hard time letting it go.

I think that's an important thing to think about when establishing these boundaries. "How would I like to be treated if the roles were reversed".

 

I think you are right to be concerned about boundaries being used to control. And they should not be. I mean some of them kinda sorta are for the more extreme things but again, the consequence part lands with the person setting the boundary. So like an extreme boundary in my case are my boundaries around porn. I am at the place where if my husband decides to pmo again, then I will leave. The reason being I am already struggling enough to live with the fact that it happened ever. But the difference is that NOW he really understands what him using it means to me. It will be a very conscious choice to do something against our marriage. I can't emotionally stomach him thinking of another woman sexually again, this is the last chance for me. So it's not even about him it's about if he does it again I just have to go. Start a new life. Move on, go live my life for me. So giant hard boundary there.

Otherwise, in all those lesser areas, I am developing the maturity, I guess you could say, to look at the places where I feel triggered in my trauma and ask myself, or sometimes he even asks me specifically, what do you need in this situation to feel safe? Is there a condition or a boundary that we can put in place to make the situation safe?

Some of the situations need a boundary, like the physical contact one. We tried a condition, it did not work. We have others. Some are a boundary around drinking at work functions/trips. Boundary is he can't do it unless I am at the function with him because I feel unsafe. He did not have a problem doing anything inappropriate but he did hide it in the past and used it to bond with people at work. As a result he withheld information and it contributed to him choosing to connect to others instead of me. So easy boundary we both agree on. If he does have to take a work trip, none of it is unknown anymore like it was before. I get an itinerary, he checks in throughout the day, immediately lets me know if something changes, etc. I realize it may sound a little bit controlling but that is not the intent. My trauma has been significant because there was so much I didn't know that he was doing - a lot of it was not anything bad but it was tied to the pmo and it was all stuff I just didn't know at all. It hit me like a ton of bricks. I am still in a state where if something comes out of left field I get triggered. Swirling head, can't think, feel physically ill. So the way he can help me heal is to be open and transparent about everything. It keeps my trauma at bay and it lets him begin to build trust. He needs to show me that he really does mean that I am his everything and he wants to share his life, himself with me. I can't believe that when he is hiding himself and his world from me. So that's where we are working.

In general, I would encourage looking at the problematic situation at hand. Ask what does the partner need to feel safe. Is there something that can be done to build safety and trust. If the goal is to continue the relationship, why do things that are causing either side so much pain? We can show love in understanding in coming to an agreement, a compromise to create safety and trust. But if one partner is not willing, then it may be time to formulate a healthy boundary.

 

I mean...boundaries absolutely are about controlling the other person's behavior. There are things you just don't do in a relationship. Most people have boundaries to control their partner's actions, or even the actions of strangers. Boundaries like "if you have an affair, that's a deal breaker for me and I will leave" or "if you ever drug my drink, I do not want to be with you anymore" or "if you kick me in the balls every day, I will not stay in the marriage".

All of these are around controlling someone's behavior. The question isn't whether boundaries are controlling. All boundaries are inherently controlling. It's whether the boundaries are reasonable.

In a healthy marriage where no one ever cheated on each other, it's probably a pretty weird boundary to ask your husband to give a detailed itenerary and text if anything changes. In healthy marriages, most women wouldn't have a problem with their spouse being part of a group where his ex also happened to exist.

But in the context of these forums, these are not healthy marriages and different boundaries that would be unreasonable in a healthy marriage context are no longer unreasonable because the spouse has proven himself to be untrustworthy and willing to lie to and use his wife.

Might they feel controlling to the cheating/addict spouse who feels like he has moved on and is a different person worthy of trust now? Sometimes, yeah. But the reality of it is that once the trust is broken like that, it will never exist in the same capacity as before because you were not the person we chose to be with. You are a different person, one that we accidentally got into relationship with, who has demonstrated that they will use trust placed in them to get away with cheating. So just because the addict looks at himself and decides he's now worthy of trust, in reality, that's just not how trust works.

You don't get to decide when your relationship should be back to healthy relationship boundaries. The moment you cheat or use your partner, you already decided that those didn't need to exist ever again. The new boundaries are either take it or leave it. They are there because you abused the trust your person placed in you. Now your spouse is just treading water with you in open seas, scared you're going to try to use them to stay afloat and drown them in the process, and they are making boundaries so that you can't slowly kill them by pushing them underwater a little too often for them to breathe. And if you DO push them underwater by violating the boundaries, their only choice is to swim away from you and leave you to tread water on your own.

 

So I agree with @used19, and her description of what a healthy boundary is.

Even if trust is broken, there's an aspect that also is true that it doesn't give one an excuse to set an unhealthy overbearing boundary. Again I think @used19 does a much better job than I can expressing it. Her points about communication I think are very important. And the examples she used are very good.

I'm not sure if you are responding to me directly or not, but the assumptions made are very much off. I'm not going to get into them here by responding to your comments on someone else's thread unless @YourLocalClown would like me to.

I just thought it was important to point out and think about. Because it is very important.

 

You sum all this up nicely in a way that makes sense and is fair.

 

Exactly. I should never have to say “ if you film me/us having sex and post it on line I will never speak to or be with you again” because decent people everywhere know not to be this disgusting and evil. And yet many on here have done just that. I once told my husband that it was not my job to show him how to be a decent man. Most people know and have healthy boundaries without them having to be explicitly written out. I know not to date another man. Shocker I know. My husband didn’t have to give me a boundary about dating others. I married expecting faithfulness, honesty, decency. Instead, I discovered I married an unfaithful liar who had any number of excuses for why he did what he did and treated me the way he did. So, there are boundaries and if he doesn’t like them he has free will to leave. I would never fight him. And if he crosses them, I’m free to leave.

 

But they aren't supposed to be about controlling behavior. They are supposed to be about clearly expressing one's needs or limits about aspects of the relationship so that the relationship can continue to function in a healthy way. They are supposed to define what the boundary setter will do to regain her safety if the boundary is broken. And they aren't over things that have no relation to emotional or physical safety. They shouldn't be expressed as a threat. There is no retaliation involved. In fact the result isn't even what the boundary setter will do to their partner. It is about what she will do to re-establish emotional and physical safety.

I have observed, both in my own spouse and from the addicts on here who are committed to their recovery, that when a boundary is really rooted in trying to help the betrayed partner heal, that there isn't a fight over it being controlling or not. I think those of us who have been betrayed know that we have to express these things more strongly now. Like I knew that my husband understood if he ever had an affair I was gone. Clearly our discussion on porn was rather murky. It isn't anymore. It is very important as we move forward to really discuss and set clear expectations around sexual expression and communication.

The boundary setting also helps me in my healing by redefining aspects of the relationship. I can't stay in this marriage if it isn't made anew. I need to give clear expectations of what *I need* in my marriage. Boundaries help me form a new, safe marriage. It's up to him if he wants to take part in it. I don't want to have to control him for him to be faithful to me.

 

But boundaries are controlling when it comes to addiction. You are explicitly saying “ if you look at porn I will leave”. “If you have an affair, I will leave”. Unless your husband wants a divorce just the fact you have to say it, is a form of control. No one should need to be told these things. I don’t need my husband to tell me what he will do if I start screwing his best friend. He has no need to protect himself from me betraying him. It changes his behavior if he fears losing you or whatever other consequence is your boundary. My husband knows that if he refuses or fails a polygraph I’ll leave. I’m pretty sure he would never voluntarily go take a polygraph. So I’m controlling his behavior, he still has a choice , he can say no, but he won’t if he doesn’t want to pay the price of my boundary. So, they decide not to do something they ordinarily would do because they don’t want to pay the price of your boundary.

 

So much of what is said here today I don't think is that specific to the topic @YourLocalClown was talking about. And I think it's important to get this back to her feelings.

There are obvious boundaries like not cheating etc. But in terms of a relationship what @used19 is laying out the "smaller" issues have much more give and take. And obviously vary based on the individual. I'd also like to point out that boundaries like this aren't exclusive to a p addict and their partner, this happens all day long. And the issues I was expressing myself have very little to do with p addiction. Boundaries can be abusive as well, everyone is free to do what they want. But I don't think it's right to act as though what @used19 and I were discussing is off base just because of a viewpoint that it's all validated due to a p addiction trust issue, and that the a p addicts feelings are second class. Yes it adds complexity and I higher level of effort. But to dismiss what we are trying to say is not right.

Back to @YourLocalClown 's issue, I think it's extremely important to have conversations like @used19 is talking about for your situation with the meeting and his ex @YourLocalClown. Maybe next time a situation presents itself where he can't go on a Sunday but can on Thursday you offer to go with him. And of course express any expectations you have as to how he conducts himself like @used19 explained she does with her husband. So that he gets to do something he enjoys and you get to feel safe. If you aren't comfortable with that it's ok. Find another solution. I don't think though it's fair at all to set a boundary and not be willing to find ways to compromise on something like this. The bigger issue @YourLocalClown expressed was that he didn't check with her about going on Thursday after it has apparently been talked about. There's either some miscommunication here or a violation that @YourLocalClown needs to decide what to do about.

A lot of what's expressed here today are hard boundaries, and yes in a way it controls behaviors. And I'm not saying they aren't justified. But the intent of them is to set up an expectation for what the individual is willing to allow in their life. Not control the other person. If the boundaries are violated then leave because it's best for you. Not because it's a punishment for the others actions. A view that is a punishment is a dangerous road.

 

Absolutely agree. I think unfortunately certain words have been used in only negative terms ie needy, or controlling, so we tend to not want to view ourselves in those terms. I’m 100% controlling about what I need I’m my relationship. There are many times I’m very needy of my husbands attention. Neither of those should be viewed negatively but are.

 

I think I don't consider it controlling for two reasons. One, I'm no longer under the illusion that I can control anything that he does. Everything he did was a choice. He showed he is able to turn me into nothing for his own pleasure. Nothing I can do or say is going to stop him if he decides that he wants to do that again. Two, I think of it more as making sure he understands my fine print of what I want in my marriage. He can blow it up if he wants to, but I'm not going to sit around sweetly this time. He's free to choose.

I think it could be useful to talk about what is the interaction like if he goes to a meeting where the ex is. Does he sit with her? Talk to her? Just say hi and move on? Or ignores her completely? Is she there every time or just sometimes? Is there a way to create safety even if he for some reason has to go to this one? Is this a dealbreaker or is there a way to create safety with an additional boundary? Like if he goes, he is willing to keep any interaction to just a greeting and if it goes beyond that he shares it afterwards. There are women at my husband's work I don't really want him to talk to because of past issues. But he needs his job to support our family and he can't just not talk to some of them when paths cross. We have discussed at length what is it that triggers me and come up with that when he has to interact with them, it is all business and he lets me know about it. No secrets, no lies, nothing beyond a meaningless transaction. I'm not controlling him, he heard what made me feel so uncomfortable and we worked together (in this case) on what could work and he is aware of what I will need to do if he is unable to keep his word in order to keep myself safe. So I think for the poster at hand, she is being very hurt by having her feelings ignored and then lied to on top of it.

 

I don't think this feeling is all that different from the shame I have described I feel. You feel as if you are "bad" because you are needy or controlling or that you care because of the negative stigma many put on it. I'm finding it is best to own it. Acknowledge that the feeling is real and worthy of being heard and understood. I've expressed this by saying it's "ok for me to be extremely sexually attracted to my wife, and that I'm going to talk about it". This is my healthy way of dealing with rejection and acknowledges to myself I'm not bad for feeling how I do.

It's also important to understand that shame does affect other people and to be conscious of it. Because when shame is triggered at least for me and my wife, listening goes out the window.

Sorry @YourLocalClown I'm trying not to digress to much! :S